The Solution to Basin and Please Stop Monetizing DS

[Pounds]

I feel like this is a delicate subject. I want to start by saying I don't think it is anyone's fault per se, whether player or staff. I also want to say that the following are strictly my own opinions based on my observations over the year. I have always loved this game. It is why I keep coming back. It is why a lot of you keep coming back.

The biggest issue is that we need new blood. I feel like a broken record saying that, and ineffectual, due to the fact that I don't know how we can get back to 100+ on a busy night. With more people, naturally some will gravitate towards DS over LS/SS. Short of taking out a Super Bowl ad, I don't think this is something that anyone can change overnight. It takes time and effort to promote and find the right audience to introduce to the game.

It goes without saying that people play with goals in mind. One of my goals was to finally become fade on this character after becoming eligible around 2008/2009. I came back in Fall 2018 and began working on that goal. I reached that goal in February 2019. I played a little, and I promptly stopped playing. I don't know why. I think it is because I hit that goal, and got up to rank 2. Got a sweet heron kit, some tps and some tokens. There isn't really much else for the character goal wise. That is technically false, but continuing to rank, or reach rank five (my next goal) is not really necessary, so I take time to work on other characters, whether old ones or new ones. One example, I went and statted an FC since I have never played one, and started working on WT.

I also noticed around this time, since a few other people reached the requirements for actually becoming a fade, that a lot of the people playing at that time began to play less. I think that a lot of the people playing DS over Fall/Winter were playing because they were a core group of people who were friendly with each other and helping each other to attain a goal. Once that goal was reached, a majority stopped playing, since they essentially hit the point where they didn't see much else that they could do with the character.

I also feel that, and this is in no way directed at anyone, part of it is due to the recent influx of remorts. It is very difficult sometimes to PK with so many fades. When your who list is 3 fades and 2 trollocs and a group of 5 LS is fighting dusty...Those 3 fades can't follow each other unless one or two of them are stupidly low level, like level 30. So only one fade can lead the trollocs, while the other two fades float around solo. This can be detrimental to group PK and it can certainly be annoying to LS. I don't know how you could fix this in a fair manner. Those players worked to get a remort and I don't think it would be a good idea to put a hold on remorts. It certainly would not be a popular decision.

I am not sure what you could do, but I think providing more unique opportunities for DS could help bolster the side. The following are a few ideas off the top of my head:
1. Put together some global quests over the summertime and cater them specifically towards DS. It doesn't have to be for some crazy reward. It doesn't have to have LS as the enemy trying to stop DS, though it could certainly be part of it.
2. More mob raids, and get the players involved. Maybe if an immortal is online and sees one or two trollocs playing, while there are ten humans playing, and has the time, they could load a dreadlord mob, some fades and some trolloc fists, and have the player trollocs head out with them to a human city to give them something unique to do and some kind of backup when they inevitably end up facing a greater force. This may be hard to balance. If more trollocs log on, or there are more/less LS than at the start, the imm might have to unload DS mobs or load LS mobs to make up for the difference. It could get hairy and if people die I could see some whining. But I think it would be interesting to see, or at least try out.
3. Some other unique perk - I know it has been talked about and shot down, but let me bring it up again. Some kind of issuable equipment, particularly abs. It doesn't have to be Murgoz, or even full abs, or cost QPs. Make it DS only so LS can't wear or sell it or even loot it. Maybe even a basic club / axe / sword that could be loaded. The idea is really to get this out there for new players to the side, or people who recently died.
4. Just more unique stuff for DS in general. Some of the clan watchers did an awesome job implementing things like badges, quests to make potions with scalps, and rewriting clan equipment and trinkets. If they can keep doing that and making more unique things for the side then maybe we will see more often and interested players?
5. More hittable scout mobs, with more info about who / number of how many
6. Adjust cities to be less handholding - take a look at gate defenses and call mob, etc. - although I believe Vampa is already working on this. Most, if not all, cities, are just plain stupid. People go afk in them all the time and they go run in and hide when the PK is not to their liking. The thing I loved about this game when I started was the unrestricted PVP. Sure it stung when I was a newbie and got killed by DS or a murderer in CCS, but actually getting some stuff and going back to fight after was tons of fun. People shouldn't be able to just AFK and not get killed. There is a certain someone I yell at all the time about how if you want to stop doing the game and do something IRL you should go rent.
7. Adjusted scalp rewards - do more of these events. Maybe focus on scalps earned in certain places, like extra QPs during an event for blight/orch or other northern zones. Not sure if doable but I believe most northern zones are on the grid and not "Seanchan" or "Wilderness" like some of the new south zones. Not sure if you could swing it with giving only one side adjusted rewards - otherwise one side will not play as much, probably.

The basin is only part of it. The change, for better or for worse, is just that, another change. Personally, I don't think there will be much difference either way. You can find out about pukes in so many different ways its not funny.

I think we should definitely give it some time, maybe a month, and take a look at the numbers. I know Stark has his website that is keeping data on the who list numbers like we used to have on the wotmud website. That data might reveal something surprising to us, whether it confirms our suspicions that people are not playing as much, or if it is just an illusion.

Depending on what that data says might give a nudge in one direction or the other about what course of action should be taken.

My personal opinion is that we need more DS focused global quests, we need more uniqueness in some shape or manner, and we need more goals (besides getting rank at reduced QPs/higher QPs to attain rank or trying to become Chosen) for people to keep chasing even after they remort.

I really like Razhak's idea about temporarily reverting some of the changes to what it was back in the day, like 2001-2005. Let people get a taste of group fade, attack with swords while unzerk. Maybe even let warders have attack with swords like they did. I also think it would be interesting to bring back engaged timers, uncapping ambush, and not standing up from bash after your attacker flees... but I feel like those will be ultimately detrimental and cause a lot of players to become upset. I think part of the reason I would like to see it is echoing Razhak in that everyone will get a chance to really see what things used to be like versus what they are like now.

[Rhahr]

Imms have done the mobraid etc. a couple times over the past few months I think, at least once. I remember Elodin once ran a mobraid with Fidrag was a lot of fun. What is it you find that is lacking on DS? Is it a lack of perks for PK? Or a lack of things to do in between PK?

@Pounds I think it is pretty normal to have a "cooldown" after reaching some goal. I know I felt kind of fatigued after becoming a Dreadlord after the novelty of it wears off, but then they opened it up so you could have both and I faded my trolloc too, then after playing around as a fade I had the same fatigue. To me the solution is to keep setting goals. Don't have that human warrior master yet? Go make one. Want to make a Gaidin? Or never played a stabber, try to get into BT or something. What to do after you've reached those goals I have no idea. But I definitely get that "lost" feeling after attaining a goal.

I have my hopes that the mud will see some sort of infusion of new blood if they ever make that TV series or before, if they market it right people might go pick up the books and do as many of us did probably "google Wheel of time game", they'll come across that old video game, but hopefully also stumble across the mud.

[Pounds]

Imms have done the mobraid etc. a couple times over the past few months I think, at least once. I remember Elodin once ran a mobraid with Fidrag was a lot of fun. What is it you find that is lacking on DS? Is it a lack of perks for PK? Or a lack of things to do in between PK?

@Pounds I think it is pretty normal to have a "cooldown" after reaching some goal. I know I felt kind of fatigued after becoming a Dreadlord after the novelty of it wears off, but then they opened it up so you could have both and I faded my trolloc too, then after playing around as a fade I had the same fatigue. To me the solution is to keep setting goals. Don't have that human warrior master yet? Go make one. Want to make a Gaidin? Or never played a stabber, try to get into BT or something. What to do after you've reached those goals I have no idea. But I definitely get that "lost" feeling after attaining a goal.

I have my hopes that the mud will see some sort of infusion of new blood if they ever make that TV series or before, if they market it right people might go pick up the books and do as many of us did probably "google Wheel of time game", they'll come across that old video game, but hopefully also stumble across the mud.

Yeah I am 100% with you there on all of that. I think what I was trying to get at was to figure if there is some other incentive we can put in for people to continue playing their remorts.

[Maegon]

6. Adjust cities to be less handholding - take a look at gate defenses and call mob, etc. - although I believe Vampa is already working on this. Most, if not all, cities, are just plain stupid. People go afk in them all the time and they go run in and hide when the PK is not to their liking. The thing I loved about this game when I started was the unrestricted PVP. Sure it stung when I was a newbie and got killed by DS or a murderer in CCS, but actually getting some stuff and going back to fight after was tons of fun. People shouldn't be able to just AFK and not get killed. There is a certain someone I yell at all the time about how if you want to stop doing the game and do something IRL you should go rent.


I really like Razhak's idea about temporarily reverting some of the changes to what it was back in the day, like 2001-2005. Let people get a taste of group fade, attack with swords while unzerk. Maybe even let warders have attack with swords like they did. I also think it would be interesting to bring back engaged timers, uncapping ambush, and not standing up from bash after your attacker flees... but I feel like those will be ultimately detrimental and cause a lot of players to become upset. I think part of the reason I would like to see it is echoing Razhak in that everyone will get a chance to really see what things used to be like versus what they are like now.

Since I've seen these ideas pop up a few times, here's some food for thought. Let's say you turn FD into Lugard level of defense. That person who runs in and hides when PK is not to their liking will just run TV. If you nerf TV, then they'll run Caemlyn. If you nerf Caemlyn, then they're just going to run until you get tired of chasing or lose enough people. The "dangerous" mud thing, like removing no-hides everywhere, is also a farce. Last night, I was personally hagg with one vial trying to manual track and fight 3 rogues. Finally someone gave me a no hide to chill and get moves. Otherwise, you know what I'm doing? I'm stuck spamming dia h.dark for 6 tics while resting (which I did for 2 tics) or going inside. Neither are fun or engaging.

As for this bring back the day nostalgia, it wouldn't change anything. Do you know why people don't like fighting an AS or 2? Because they're dangerous. You know why people don't like fighting rogues? Because they're hard to chase. Know why people don't like fighting fades? Because they're typically good, dangerous, and hard to chase. The reason PK was dangerous "back in the day" was because most of us were bad. When you have lots of bad players as fodder, of course there's going to be more decisive PK.

This isn't to say changes shouldn't be made, but a lot of current issues on the MUD depend on a change in player mindset. I'm still trying to put my thumb on my mindset change experience from fps pvp and how to apply it to the extreme variance seen in WoTMUD pvp.

[Eol]

The whole basin thing(even if its not the real issue) is just fighting over crumbs. You wouldn't need a basin if a stroll through the south would encounter humans. You wouldn't feel neglected if you got PK. Darkside can't survive on a human who list of 10. PK has become like a second marriage. Everyone knows what sh*t they won't put up with and when they'll leave.

[Elysia]

Just posting here to let you know that imms are actively reading this thread. Personally, I'm not involved with DS decision making much, so I'm just posting so you, hopefully, won't feel ignored.

Before people start crying that I did make the basin change, yes I did. It was a fix for the first fix, which was requested by Vampa. The first fix wasn't as restrictive as intended due to people walking in in a group. Essentially, if I had gotten the fix right the first time round, this wouldn't be interpreted like 2 consecutive downings.

[stark]

There's definitely two discussions going on here. There is
1) The basin
2) DS not getting as much attention as LS

For 1), I personally like Baal's idea. Vials are so incredibly plentiful on DS (and even moreso now with chosen broker)... That + abundance of remorts + all the flame destinations + ways accessibility really makes me wonder how anyone can say that DS mobility is an issue. I will say though that the basin worked a lot better when the LS who list was 80 than when it's 8 as it is now. There is a difference between "pk" and "4 trollocs jump on you when you're solo smobbing and have no possible way of getting a heads-up and every chance of being discovered". That's not pk.

For 2), I truly don't understand the "ds is not getting enough love / imms hate ds" narrative. I really don't. Since coming back I've spent more than 50% of my playing time on DS (maybe a little less since mastering Zajr), and I just don't find that to be true. In fact DS clans have been getting various perks, even in the last year. What is it that the people who feel DS is unloved want exactly? Do you really want clan mounts, or new lanterns?! Non-pk ways to earn QPs, RP retools, a merchant guild perhaps? What has been given to LS that DS would actually want? All the crafting, tokens, potion brokers, master blacksmiths, ctf patties, r8 perks, master questing, all those have been given to both sides.

The thing is that for DS to thrive, LS needs to thrive first. That's just a reality of the balance of this game. If LS is low then all DS can do is smob. And you can't solve the situation by saying "well let's just force people to pk by removing incentive to do other things." Personally, I'm primarily a pker. In the end, it's what I'm always putting work in for. But there's lots of players that just don't want to do that. They want to advance their character, but they don't want to PK. And we have to understand and respect that this game is those player's too. We want them here. Removing the ways they enjoy playing the game (the 'other' ways to earn QPs) just because we demand the right to kill them will only make it so that we have no-one left to kill.

[Lykan]

Basin timeline:

- initial inception: regular blood worked. basin was used a lot.
- changed to human blood only: basin was basically used by a select handful of us on occasion from 2005-2018 or so, primarily to kill smobbers/questers
- 2019: you can now buy human blood in shops (lol...) - basin is used a shitton, for obvious reasons
- present: restrictions are placed upon it for obvious reasons - basin is still used far more than any time between 2005-2019.
- DS commences bitching that LS is handheld and they need more bonuses to slay LS realgood. Add in obligatory posts from Razhak about giving him fade attack and people might be scared of him.

Thank you for never changing, WOTMUD.

I get the argument about shifting towards PVE-focused stuff and the impact of all the other changes (and agree with several of the points made), but throwing them in on the tail of the basin bitching seems like a pretty good way to automatically delegitimize your argument.

[Dartes]

The biggest issue is that we need new blood. I feel like a broken record saying that, and ineffectual, due to the fact that I don't know how we can get back to 100+ on a busy night. With more people, naturally some will gravitate towards DS over LS/SS. Short of taking out a Super Bowl ad, I don't think this is something that anyone can change overnight. It takes time and effort to promote and find the right audience to introduce to the game.

This is 100% the root of it. More people means more pkers, more people on at any given time doing things, way easier to find people, group for stuff, etc. Would solve I think every one of the recent threads that have popped up here.

That said, I don't know what the solution is. A good website that actually shows up on the first list when "wheel of time game" is googled is a start. I just tried it, and wotmud wasn't in the first three pages, with Kinslayer on page three! The web client is a massive benefit for ease of access and no need to download a client or map - someone finding us for the first time has the ability to say "I want to play that!", click a link, and be in the game. Someone smarter than me might have better ideas how to get the word out! (I realize the intersection of the mud community and Wheel of Time fans likely isn't humongous, but it's gotta be more than 20 people at any given time slot across the entire planet)

Sorry for the slight derail.

[iria]

Basin timeline:

- initial inception: regular blood worked. basin was used a lot.
- changed to human blood only: basin was basically used by a select handful of us on occasion from 2005-2018 or so, primarily to kill smobbers/questers
- 2019: you can now buy human blood in shops (lol...) - basin is used a shitton, for obvious reasons
- present: restrictions are placed upon it for obvious reasons - basin is still used far more than any time between 2005-2019.
- DS commences bitching that LS is handheld and they need more bonuses to slay LS realgood. Add in obligatory posts from Razhak about giving him fade attack and people might be scared of him.

Thank you for never changing, WOTMUD.

I get the argument about shifting towards PVE-focused stuff and the impact of all the other changes (and agree with several of the points made), but throwing them in on the tail of the basin bitching seems like a pretty good way to automatically delegitimize your argument.

Shut up, Lykan.