HoA Bash

[Aishana]

Not really sure what contagion inducing weapons fades have

Contagion from fade eq when they die, which is really awful and needs to go.

HoA does too much damage on masters. I don't use it because the damage is so low for sp cost, but it's similar to a fs on a master. Whether the weave should exist or not...idk I kind of like having more than 2 weaves that you can actually use in pk without being called a scumbag. It does add a significant element of randomness though. I tend to agree with Petra; it's an opportunity for the super dodgers to die. I wouldn't be heartbroken if it was gone though, since again I never use it and it does get used on me all the time

[Rig]

I agree with everyone here! Remove HoA!

[Reyne]

I'd be careful about conflating Mikhan being good with the weaves themselves being OP.

I've used HoA since I first started playing and the rate of bashes doesn't seem very high at all, nor does it do a lot of damage. I was under the impression that the occasional bash is the upside to an otherwise low damage weave? Besides last night all I was doing was weaving HoA and spikes and I don't think I bashed Mikhan, Jestin, or Bastige once. It's really luck of the draw.

Also, if HoA is removed then I don't have anything to channel in combat frankly. I don't have the pracs/int for Fire without sacrificing a ton of other stuff, lightning is useless as you're either dependent on the weather or will spend all your sps changing it and you can't use it indoors anyway, and spikes are in my opinion fairly easy to dodge and very hit or miss.

If the hammer of air weave bashed on a low % but did not deal any damage at all, I could see that as a slight compromise, but still overpowered, as the user is guaranteed the damage of ice spikes or fireball once their target is sat.

I don't know about guaranteed, it still relies on the channeler to be good enough to realize they bashed someone and then immediately start weaving fire/spikes. Takes 13 pulses to get those off and a bash will last for 24, so you have ~3 seconds to complete the second weave which can be interrupted, fail, etc. Maybe I need a script I suppose.

Having it not deal any damage at all means you'll be drained of sps trying to get a single bash on someone all the time, unless we up the bash % but then I feel like that wouldn't really address the concern. If damage is removed and bash % remains the same though you might as well just remove the weave entirely.

I pretty much agree with Firimei Sedai here. Besides I'm already not supposed to use most the weaves I want because it'll ruin PK. I'm not particularly excited to lose another one.

The main problem is that it (1) allows bash on a very short timer and (2) allows channelers to bash when there are already so many upsides to being a channeler.

I'd be okay with ditching the bash and just upping the damage on it I suppose. But then what really differentiates it from flamestrike?

Maybe ditch the bash and tie the damage to the weather such that if it is very windy it does more damage similar to like how hot/cold affects the ice/fire weaves?

Also if you want better channie v channie combat then let everyone learn slice weaves imo (unless they already can and I'm just a dolt).

It does add a significant element of randomness though.

That's kind of just PK though. Whether or not you're able to flee on the first try or you get stuck building up flee lag is random, too. It's the nature of the beast.

e: What is 'fair PK' by the way? Genuine question since it varies from game to game, not trying to be snarky.

[Reyne]

e: oops, quote is not edit!

[Eol]

The bash doesn't take into account the opponents DB. It can continue a bash a player was already in that was bashed. Would be interesting to test if it counters autowimpy and guarantees 2 rounds.

The fact of the matter is that there's enormous variability in what people think is unbalanced. We're unfortunately playing a deeply flawed game that just happens to be a bit of fun. I don't see a coding solution happening, but there has been some interesting self restraint displayed through time. Perhaps this thread will lead to that. There's a lot less horse stabbing than there has been historically. Still happens, but less. A few of the other things discussed have stupid issues, but I'll respect the name of the thread and avoid.

Also, I'm sorry, but some of the "I can't use weaves" talk just makes people sound inexperienced.

[Reyne]

Also, I'm sorry, but some of the "I can't use weaves" talk just makes people sound inexperienced.

I definitely am but if I use any debuff weave at all or anything interesting like Freeze I get people from both sides bitching at me for 'ruining PK' so... What am I meant to do exactly is my legit question here.

A lot of these conversations happen from the perspective of super statted vets, just something to keep in mind.

[Jaster]

That won't be productive, we all know what is being said and reading between the lines. Less maybe of the weaves that do no good outside a door? On both sides.

No idea otherwise how to combat this and feel this thread will just go in circles

The thread will only go in circles when you and others don't follow the simple rules or asks of the person who started the thread. Speak specifically about HoA and its balance. This has nothing to do with contagion, fade shirts, a persons skill level, or any of the irrelevant talking points that are close to derailing the thread.

[Reyne]

Can't have something that bashes with such a short timer. Bash is such a devastating thing, needs long timer and penalty for failure, not guaranteed damage if fail and amazing results if success.

Well look I agree with this I just feel like the solution has to involve something other than nerfing the weave into uselessness or relying on no one to learn it.

Remove bash, give it a small damage bump, and ideally tie it somehow to the various wind strengths when outside and I'll be happy with that.

[Eol]

The weave isn't going to be changed - coding changes don't happen. Players agreeing not to use a weave or expressing their concerns with it to influence the minds of others is probably the only viable option.

There's nothing inherently special about a spell that makes the world a sadder place because something is not used anymore. Changes to it aside, almost everyone has essentially stopped using incinerate. No one has ever used whirlpool.

As for understanding what other players will tolerate and how to give and take - play multiple character classes across more than 1 race. Develop and understanding of the game and the mentality of others.

[Jestin]

To sum up what I've seen in the posts in this thread:

(1) In general people are okay with at least removing the bash aspect of HoA.
(2) There is uncertainty about a coding solution.

Therefore I propose the following course of action:

- As players we try to reduce the use of HoA in pk until imms can step in.
- As a bandage solution, imms remove HoA as a practicable weave.
- When coders can find the time to get to it, we up the damage of HoA to somewhere between FS and spikes/fball, and the timer to somewhere in between as well.

What say everyone?