America....

[sauin]

My point is simply that with the current state of the democratic party primaries, Trump can be viewed as the closest you can get to a candidate that is divorced from corporate interests (not referring to his actions once he became President).

Many people pointed out how ridiculous this was during the elections, but now that that's been debunked as complete horseshit, what exactly does that say about the Republican primaries? You've completely overlooked the fact that the Republican primaries resulted in a President that is not only vulnerable to corporate interests, but also to foreign adversarial interests in addition to being wholly inept and incompetent for the job itself, does that not say something about the Republican primaries?

How is the system that gave us Clinton, Gore, Obama, and, yes, even Hillary Clinton (who you can't call inexperienced or an incompetent statesman at the very worst if you're rooted in any kind of reality) worse than the one that gave us Bush 43, Sarah Palin on a major ticket, and Donald Trump?

I'll start by pointing out that I explicitly referred to trump as a candidate, and not as the president, but other than that I thank you for your response that roughly boils down to "I think the other side are worse".

Trump, once again as a candidate and not as the president, could be reasonably stated to be the least favoured by the republican establishment. Despite this he was still given a "fair go" and ended up winning the nomination. Conversely the very structure of the democrat primaries exists to ensure that the "right" candidate is picked. The use of superdelegates alone is undemocratic. The actions taken by the DNC and their tilted interactions with both hillary and bernie's teams could be said to be blatantly corrupt.

This attitude has not changed. The first townhall meeting to decide a new DNC chair was posed around the topic that Bernie had attracted large amounts of grassroots funding, and about how the party could retain that funding. To emphasise, the concern wasnt with what the voters wanted, it was how to get as much out of their wallets as possible.

At no point does any of the above endorse trump, or state that trump as president hasn't bowed down to the throne of corporate interests. It does herald however that the democrats have some serious internal flaws that directly contributed to their election loss and the loss of the once famed "blue wall". Pointing out that the democrats have flaws it not mutually exclusive with the republicans also having flaws. Pinning your response, regardless of party on "we think we're better than the other side" is simply a race to ethical bedrock.

[Enok]

I have no dog in this fight, but as an outsider looking in; Trump won because he speaks his mind. He is not a politician. I have a feeling this will be the next wave of candidates that we will see world wide. Not politicians, but people speak their mind(whether you want to hear it/agree with it or not). People are fed up with this scripted bullshit that our politics has been for the last decades. Like him or hate him, at least you know where he stands on every issue. This is extremely refreshing to so many people who are tired with all the prepared statements and other BS in politics. Speak your mind, be genuine, and you too could be the next leader of a country. Just my opinion.

Guesty Mcguesterson

Do you really know where Trump stands on every issue? If it suits him, he'll flip-flop his way out of any tight spot and live to golf another day.

On the general topic of this thread:

To me, the single biggest irony in the U.S is the millions of people in the rust belt, bible belt and in the flyover states who survive on food stamps and other handouts and still vote for Trump. I really have little to no sympathy left for these people after seeing the first 100 or so days of the Trump administration. They are so out of touch with current events and global issues that they believe we'll go back to coal and oil and that baby jesus will save us all if we deport some more mexicans and build a wall. If it's refreshing to have a toddler perform dental surgery then you got exactly what you wanted. A prime case of pure incompetence.

I do want to add that we have sort of the same problems in the EU where people in the old soviet states vote for ultra-nationalist parties, are anti-EU, anti-globalism but gladly accept monetary support from wealthier nations.

http://ec.europa.eu/budget/mycountry/HU ... .cfm#cinfo

Being a white male with a decently paying job in a world top 5 country (in almost every single positive ranking you can think of including life expectancy, happiness, child survival rates and standard of living), part of me really wants to see these people get their way. I would gladly cooperate and develop bonds with ONLY similar, well functioning democracies and let the deplorables (yeah, I went there) of the world community kill themselves off; one ignorant, mouth breathing country/state at a time. On the other hand, being educated in social sciences, statistics and with a functioning brain, I realize that the only way to make the world a better place is to try and teach other people how to live thier lives. It's like trying to get a child to do the right thing. I still care about you, even if you're stupid and ignorant.

/Elitistjerk

[Firimei Lang]

I have no dog in this fight, but as an outsider looking in; Drumpf won because he speaks his mind. He is not a politician. I have a feeling this will be the next wave of candidates that we will see world wide. Not politicians, but people speak their mind(whether you want to hear it/agree with it or not). People are fed up with this scripted bullshit that our politics has been for the last decades. Like him or hate him, at least you know where he stands on every issue. This is extremely refreshing to so many people who are tired with all the prepared statements and other BS in politics. Speak your mind, be genuine, and you too could be the next leader of a country. Just my opinion.

Guesty Mcguesterson

Do you really know where Drumpf stands on every issue? If it suits him, he'll flip-flop his way out of any tight spot and live to golf another day.

On the general topic of this thread:

To me, the single biggest irony in the U.S is the millions of people in the rust belt, bible belt and in the flyover states who survive on food stamps and other handouts and still vote for Drumpf. I really have little to no sympathy left for these people after seeing the first 100 or so days of the Drumpf administration. They are so out of touch with current events and global issues that they believe we'll go back to coal and oil and that baby jesus will save us all if we deport some more mexicans and build a wall. If it's refreshing to have a toddler perform dental surgery then you got exactly what you wanted. A prime case of pure incompetence.

I do want to add that we have sort of the same problems in the EU where people in the old soviet states vote for ultra-nationalist parties, are anti-EU, anti-globalism but gladly accept monetary support from wealthier nations.

http://ec.europa.eu/budget/mycountry/HU ... .cfm#cinfo




Being a white male with a decently paying job in a world top 5 country (in almost every single positive ranking you can think of including life expectancy, happiness, child survival rates and standard of living), part of me really wants to see these people get their way. I would gladly cooperate and develop bonds with ONLY similar, well functioning democracies and let the deplorables (yeah, I went there) of the world community kill themselves off; one ignorant, mouth breathing country/state at a time. On the other hand, being educated in social sciences, statistics and with a functioning brain, I realize that the only way to make the world a better place is to try and teach other people how to live thier lives. It's like trying to get a child to do the right thing. I still care about you, even if you're stupid and ignorant.

/Elitistjerk

This, all of this!

[sauin]

To me, the single biggest irony in the U.S is the millions of people in the rust belt, bible belt and in the flyover states who survive on food stamps and other handouts and still vote for Trump. I really have little to no sympathy left for these people after seeing the first 100 or so days of the Trump administration. They are so out of touch with current events and global issues that they believe we'll go back to coal and oil and that baby jesus will save us all if we deport some more mexicans and build a wall. If it's refreshing to have a toddler perform dental surgery then you got exactly what you wanted. A prime case of pure incompetence.

Having lived in areas that you describe as "out of touch with current events and global issues" I take some offence at your statements. Of my graduating year, more than three quarters of the students had not found a job half a decade later, I have not heard anything in the intervening period that has changed the accuracy of this statement. No awareness of "global issues" or of "baby jesus", or the suffering of the poor and starving will resolve this issue for them. Their lives are trapped in economic dead ends wrought by the continuation of Reaganomics and global economics. To find a job you must move to the city, to move to the city you must be able to afford it, to be able to afford it you must have a job.

Given this fundamental problem wherein the lives of millions of people are left to, as you say "survive on food stamps and other handouts, they exist in a waiting mode, trapped in a cycle of dependency from which no escape is offered. The democrats have been treating them as a done deal since 1988, the republicans a lost cause. When you have sat there and been forgotten for decades as your children grow up with no prospects what action do you take? Where did your jobs go? Your rust-belters are the forgotten democrats, the ones who stood up for workers rights, for unions and better conditions. As it turns out, they got exported because it's cheaper to perform manufacturing in countries that pay a lower minimum wage, and which do not bother with things like workplace safety regulations. Once again we see this continuing theme of economics above lives.

Is it then surprising that these forgotten people revolt against what they see to be the champions of the current economic system?

I do want to add that we have sort of the same problems in the EU where people in the old soviet states vote for ultra-nationalist parties, are anti-EU, anti-globalism but gladly accept monetary support from wealthier nations.

Generally speaking "ultra-nationalist" parties are either non-dominant parties that do not have the ability to do so, in the case of hungary claim it is their mission to reform the EU to their views and are hence not "anti-EU", they claim to disagree with it's current intention not the structure of the body, or in the case of Poland, are probably doing their level best as a group that are "anti-eu" to destroy it by draining it of wealth.

On the other hand, being educated in social sciences, statistics and with a functioning brain, I realize that the only way to make the world a better place is to try and teach other people how to live thier lives. It's like trying to get a child to do the right thing. I still care about you, even if you're stupid and ignorant.
/Elitistjerk

I believe you just described imperialism.

[arkaza]

Don't forget to decapitate the head concubine when you're steering the petulant children down the correct path.

[faul]

I'll start by pointing out that I explicitly referred to trump as a candidate, and not as the president,

And I'll point out candidate Trump was very obviously the same firetrucking person as President Trump. Also, would you really be making this post about the flaws in the Democratic Primary process if Clinton beat Bernie and then won? No? That's the same post-hoc reasoning that makes Trump's presidency fair game to consider whether or not comparable processes lead to desirable outcomes.

but other than that I thank you for your response that roughly boils down to "I think the other side are worse".

You're welcome -- I figured it was a worthy response to a pretty standard "Bernie lost, the process is broken! Ignore 2008 plz". I also did mention how your whining about the validity of the Democratic primaries seems to be largely predicated on Sanders losing "because superdelegates" completely ignored the following:

- the fact that Clinton would have won under pretty much any scenario or methodology (proportional based on state vote, winner-take-all based on state vote, and, yes, even with superdelegates completely abolished
- the fact that caucuses are "not democratic" in their own ways and without winning 9 of 11, Sanders isn't even close.
- the fact that Obama took the establishment candidate on and won in 2008
- the fact that Clinton's base wasn't purely "elites" or "lobbies"

Trump, once again as a candidate and not as the president, could be reasonably stated to be the least favoured by the republican establishment. Despite this he was still given a "fair go" and ended up winning the nomination.

Do you actually believe Bernie Sanders wasn't given at least a "fair go"? I'm not even sure the Sanders campaign thinks they were not.

Conversely the very structure of the democrat primaries exists to ensure that the "right" candidate is picked.

...completely reflecting the "very structure" of our general electoral process. Theoretically, anyways, as we see now.

The use of superdelegates alone is undemocratic. The actions taken by the DNC and their tilted interactions with both hillary and bernie's teams could be said to be blatantly corrupt.

Maybe it was less the process and more the Sanders campaign that spent the entire first part of the primary cycle demonizing the DNC? Again, unless you have the memory of a gold fish, you can remember at least one candidate that took on the obvious DNC favorite and won not too long ago.

At no point does any of the above endorse trump, or state that trump as president hasn't bowed down to the throne of corporate interests. It does herald however that the democrats have some serious internal flaws that directly contributed to their election loss and the loss of the once famed "blue wall". Pointing out that the democrats have flaws it not mutually exclusive with the republicans also having flaws. Pinning your response, regardless of party on "we think we're better than the other side" is simply a race to ethical bedrock.

Nobody's claiming the process isn't flawed - "undemocratic" is just a facile argument that's great for people who are under some kind of impression that our system is a pure democracy at any level or definition. There are plenty of flaws in the process, they're just not as responsible for Sanders losing as you'd probably like to think. The rest of the crap about the blue wall is post hoc rationalization anyways -- the Clinton campaign fucked up plenty enough in the rust belt during the generals to make how she got the nomination in the first place a minor factor comparatively.

[arkaza]

Congressman Al Green ✔ @RepAlGreen
Today on the floor of the Congress of the United States of America, I will call for the Impeachment of the President between 9am & 10am CST.
8:07 AM - 17 May 2017

[arkaza]

"Banks Battered As Dow Crashes Through Key Technical Support"

Get ready to buy the impeachment dip!

[Brocas]

Quite sure Arkaza doesn't need or want to hide behind any alias, imo.

[Enok]

Having lived in areas that you describe as "out of touch with current events and global issues" I take some offence at your statements. Of my graduating year, more than three quarters of the students had not found a job half a decade later, I have not heard anything in the intervening period that has changed the accuracy of this statement. No awareness of "global issues" or of "baby jesus", or the suffering of the poor and starving will resolve this issue for them. Their lives are trapped in economic dead ends wrought by the continuation of Reaganomics and global economics. To find a job you must move to the city, to move to the city you must be able to afford it, to be able to afford it you must have a job.

Having grown up in a heavily industry dependent region that saw jobs disappear to Portugal, the baltic countries and, later down the road, China, I see what you mean. I dare say all industrialized countries have. How did we get out of it? Safety nets(communism), education(socialism) and hard work. Realizing that things will have to change is step one. The same jobs are not coming back.

What baffles me is how the people you describe vote for a populist billionaire who represent "the bootstrap" party. It's like they never heard the phrase "if it sounds too good to be true..." and applied it to "healthcare will be better and cheaper for all, bigly!" "Oh, and I will reform the entire tax system and give everyone more money because I'm smart, and Ivanka is smart and..uh...Look! Hillary's emails and pizza pedophiles!!!".

Is it then surprising that these forgotten people revolt against what they see to be the champions of the current economic system?

Not in the slightest. They're just barking up the wrong tree. As long as there is a tree though, right? But why listen to billionairs like Warren Buffet who bluntly say "Tax us, we can take it" when you can listen to the Koch brothers who say "We don't have enough! Minimum wage increases will force us to move production to Mexic....I mean somewhere!"

Generally speaking "ultra-nationalist" parties are either non-dominant parties that do not have the ability to do so, in the case of hungary claim it is their mission to reform the EU to their views and are hence not "anti-EU", they claim to disagree with it's current intention not the structure of the body, or in the case of Poland, are probably doing their level best as a group that are "anti-eu" to destroy it by draining it of wealth.

And then Brexit happened. Destroying a few hundred billion euros over night because people bought into the whole (brace yourself because you're going to feel like you've heard this before) "WE WILL FUNNEL BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF POUNDS BACK TO THE NHS, MONTHLY! (that's the "free" brittish healthcare for those who don't know)". And then they jumped ship the next day and said they had miscalculated.

I believe you just described imperialism.

Ha! You would know, wouldn't you. Exporting freedom and liberty in shiny metal casings since WW2.