To be fair Paj, you chased a master in a zone full of clan mobs! You would think it should be hard to kill someone in that position!
As for not allowing Ko'bal to remort(barring existing masters at the time of the imp)it's pretty mind boggling. You already made it so most of the alt qps you have to get cannot be stabbed. Literally almost all of them. As for Fades stabbing, it's been a thing since the beginning of this game and hasn't changed until now? You may as well make the clan mob, H'kkreth, world a sword or something because if I remember correctly he's a stabby fade and let's you practice rogue skills!
Going after this one class is just petty to me. This happened because rogues were "annoying" and people don't like them. Far as I'm concerned this is their job. To be annoying, to antagonize the enemy. Slip in and land a kill that could turn the tide of battle.
I find channies annoying. Why haven't they been restricted in any way? How come almost every time I get into pk I eat 2, 110 hp weaves while bashed and die from mid wound. You seem to also forget trolls aren't very smart and have low Wil so as Loomis said, the fleelag is so easy to build up, making it that much easier to kill us.
Also there is only one dagger unique in game and God forbid it ever sees the light of pk again. Unfair to the rest of the player base IMO. All of the others of course are "bugged" or "quest only" which I find ridiculous. Now I must continue my life as a wannabe wb.
Why is there such a hate on for rogues?
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Paj
Re: Why is there such a hate on for rogues?
Loomis wrote:Also, for those of you who hate fighting us...the amount of kills you would get if you just tried to chase once in a while would astound you.
Re: Why is there such a hate on for rogues?
lol thats not the situation i meant at all Paj
Re: Why is there such a hate on for rogues?
The main problem with rogues is that they're more useless the more of them they are. It's the reverse for bashers and absers. A group of five rogues is junk for hitting at mobs, and junk for defending at mobs. At this point, most of my frustration with rogues is fighting with them, not fighting against them. It's only so fun to get screwed over by people on your side who refuse to group, refuse to buff, refuse to melee, can't track, etc. That's the majority of DS rogues, most of whom aren't personally evil, or anything, but are much more reliable on their bashers. Maybe rogues should be annoying--but they're usually more annoying for their friends than their enemies.
They're the same as channies in a way. One is great to have in a group, but they have diminishing returns. Nothing gets me off DS faster than logging on to a wholist of rogues.
Alll of that goes double for stab fades. The vast majority were useless, and screwed over the rest of the side by being useless. It was always miserable to be a group of trollocs constantly hagg because the one fade in the PK wanted to run around ungrouped. Not to mention--fear stab/charge are junk to fight against, especially with cure fear still being bugged. Wanting fades to be leaders isn't an RP thing as much as a game balance thing. It doesn't make sense to give one class the best leading bonuses and the best individual bonuses. In an ideal world, there would be a clear choice, so that staying as a master leads to competitive bonuses.
My only real complaint with restricting rogues from fading is it should have happened years earlier.
No hides/hard hides were probably more important when you could still roll on engaged targets.
Yes--rogues can be run down. The main problems are track not being reliable, and that often choosing to chase down the solo rogue means you let the rest of DS regroup, regen, and then re-hit to save their friend.
They're the same as channies in a way. One is great to have in a group, but they have diminishing returns. Nothing gets me off DS faster than logging on to a wholist of rogues.
Alll of that goes double for stab fades. The vast majority were useless, and screwed over the rest of the side by being useless. It was always miserable to be a group of trollocs constantly hagg because the one fade in the PK wanted to run around ungrouped. Not to mention--fear stab/charge are junk to fight against, especially with cure fear still being bugged. Wanting fades to be leaders isn't an RP thing as much as a game balance thing. It doesn't make sense to give one class the best leading bonuses and the best individual bonuses. In an ideal world, there would be a clear choice, so that staying as a master leads to competitive bonuses.
My only real complaint with restricting rogues from fading is it should have happened years earlier.
No hides/hard hides were probably more important when you could still roll on engaged targets.
Yes--rogues can be run down. The main problems are track not being reliable, and that often choosing to chase down the solo rogue means you let the rest of DS regroup, regen, and then re-hit to save their friend.
Re: Why is there such a hate on for rogues?
I completely agree with you Ecthus about the group of rogues..1 or 2 is ok, but you need bashers. I get that. Yes I get we can be annoying to play with, but thats more to do with the player behind the char the the character itself. I could just as easily play a combo basher the same....or what about charge? those guys run around solo ALL the time during group pk. Each class has its own benefits. Like Rig said(i can't believe I'm actually agreeing with him 
) I view a rogues role as hounding the enemy, staying on the fringes, and going for that kill that can totally change the balance of the fight. Like taking out their channie for example.
Don't get me wrong, I will mele like a good boy when i have to(which i find myself doing more and more). You just have to read the situation. I always look at it as "am i screwing someone over here?" if not, i run around willy nilly and go for kills. It tends to work out well for me. I have no problem grouping with people and mele though when we have bashers...thats my role too. Sit there and spam so basher can land in flee lag, or when their prey Dlines back in.
As I said, I think it has to do with people not reading situations correctly, and the player behind it, rather than the class itself.
) I view a rogues role as hounding the enemy, staying on the fringes, and going for that kill that can totally change the balance of the fight. Like taking out their channie for example.Don't get me wrong, I will mele like a good boy when i have to(which i find myself doing more and more). You just have to read the situation. I always look at it as "am i screwing someone over here?" if not, i run around willy nilly and go for kills. It tends to work out well for me. I have no problem grouping with people and mele though when we have bashers...thats my role too. Sit there and spam so basher can land in flee lag, or when their prey Dlines back in.
As I said, I think it has to do with people not reading situations correctly, and the player behind it, rather than the class itself.
Re: Why is there such a hate on for rogues?
Nohides: I am a fan. Ragan being no hide is great. I love having a room close to pk that I can sit without spamming. I wish balcony was also a no-hide. For cities I think they are also necessary. With such low numbers I don't want to have to spam constantly in every city for 100% of my playtime when I will probably never see a troll rogue.
Telling fades they can't stab: I think it is great for pk, rp, and atmosphere of the mud. It is a great experience as a new player to follow a gaidin or a fade into battle. And a lot of DS players recommend DS to new players, and if you want newbie abser trolls to sit channies then you need strong leaders to lead them to combat. If your on DS as an abser troll, and the other players are a stabby fade and a troll rogue, you are gonna get picked off and be the first to leave pk or the first to die. It just seems to me to be gimping the side to have the strongest characters, with the highest leadership, to be in a solo setup.
No more remorts from Ko'bal: It makes sense. To complete fade quests you need to lead the group. But whatever I don't care either way.
Chasing rogues and rogue pk: You answered this yourself. You said if it wasn't fun to pk rogues than to not pk you. That is probably what they are doing. It is not fun chasing a troll rogue, so they are not chasing you. Having to leave notice on, having to spam multiple times to hit you or use h.dark, having the chance of getting stabbed while tracking or narring or walking back into a stab etc. It is a pain.
This thread and typing this out has actually increased my hate for troll rogues lol.
Telling fades they can't stab: I think it is great for pk, rp, and atmosphere of the mud. It is a great experience as a new player to follow a gaidin or a fade into battle. And a lot of DS players recommend DS to new players, and if you want newbie abser trolls to sit channies then you need strong leaders to lead them to combat. If your on DS as an abser troll, and the other players are a stabby fade and a troll rogue, you are gonna get picked off and be the first to leave pk or the first to die. It just seems to me to be gimping the side to have the strongest characters, with the highest leadership, to be in a solo setup.
No more remorts from Ko'bal: It makes sense. To complete fade quests you need to lead the group. But whatever I don't care either way.
Chasing rogues and rogue pk: You answered this yourself. You said if it wasn't fun to pk rogues than to not pk you. That is probably what they are doing. It is not fun chasing a troll rogue, so they are not chasing you. Having to leave notice on, having to spam multiple times to hit you or use h.dark, having the chance of getting stabbed while tracking or narring or walking back into a stab etc. It is a pain.
This thread and typing this out has actually increased my hate for troll rogues lol.
Re: Why is there such a hate on for rogues?
Ragan being no hide...you still have to spam to avoid charging fades. Personally, I think if you are that close to pk, yes you should have to spam all the time...thats part of the mud. I understand theres emergencies, and its nice to have a close room to run to and quickly afk, so I'm kind of fine it being no hide...commy, not so much though. You are close enough to FD that you can easily make it there to afk.
Your spamming in the city 100% of the time argument makes no sense at all...if there is 1 no hide per city, then walk the 10 rooms and sit there. There is absolutely no reason to have gates and dung no hide. That is so counterproductive. They already have crazy gate defences, so why do they need to be no hide? is GK no hide? or any dark side gate for that matter?(maybe TKD??).
I'm not sure what you were getting at with the "I answered this myself"...i was saying that if you don't want to pk me, thats fine, I don't mind at all. Im not going to be butthurt about it...but if you guys would just chase more rogues in those bigger pk sessions, you may kill more of them. As Ecthus said though, you must weigh out if its worth it to chase 1, than focus on the group.
You are also implying that Ko'bal cannot lead? some of the best chasers in the game were once Ko'bal....
The telling fades they can't stab thing only really affected a few fades. Most were bash/combo, or abs(in Razhaks case). Who did we have that stabbed? shzrei? Hress? maybe a couple more? for the most part though, they are bash/combo.
Your spamming in the city 100% of the time argument makes no sense at all...if there is 1 no hide per city, then walk the 10 rooms and sit there. There is absolutely no reason to have gates and dung no hide. That is so counterproductive. They already have crazy gate defences, so why do they need to be no hide? is GK no hide? or any dark side gate for that matter?(maybe TKD??).
I'm not sure what you were getting at with the "I answered this myself"...i was saying that if you don't want to pk me, thats fine, I don't mind at all. Im not going to be butthurt about it...but if you guys would just chase more rogues in those bigger pk sessions, you may kill more of them. As Ecthus said though, you must weigh out if its worth it to chase 1, than focus on the group.
You are also implying that Ko'bal cannot lead? some of the best chasers in the game were once Ko'bal....
The telling fades they can't stab thing only really affected a few fades. Most were bash/combo, or abs(in Razhaks case). Who did we have that stabbed? shzrei? Hress? maybe a couple more? for the most part though, they are bash/combo.
Re: Why is there such a hate on for rogues?
I think the remort ban for ko'bal makes a ton of sense. It has been in place for a long time. If people chose to master their chars anyway, that is on them. Besides f we are complaining about master trolloc rogues not being able to remort, shouldn't we be complaining about the LS masters in their clans that don't have a remort?
We don't need more masters and remorts in PK anyway. And we sure don't need more trolloc rogues running around (which would happen if they thought they could get into Ko'bal to eventually remort).
Also no offence - but this "if you guys would just chase more rogues in those bigger pk sessions, you may kill more of them." - is generally just bull****.
We all know it. Trolloc rogues have long been the UNDISPUTED easiest class to survive on wotmud and nothing has changed on this in the last 10 years.
We don't need more masters and remorts in PK anyway. And we sure don't need more trolloc rogues running around (which would happen if they thought they could get into Ko'bal to eventually remort).
Also no offence - but this "if you guys would just chase more rogues in those bigger pk sessions, you may kill more of them." - is generally just bull****.
We all know it. Trolloc rogues have long been the UNDISPUTED easiest class to survive on wotmud and nothing has changed on this in the last 10 years.Re: Why is there such a hate on for rogues?
None taken Hackett...But lets just agree to disagree on the chasing rogue thing. Don't get me wrong, DS rogues do have it easiest for survivability(other than WB id guess). I honestly think though that if people would just put more effort into chasing us, then we would die WAY more than we do now. I can flee maybe 5 times(don't have exact number on flee lag, but just ballparking it) before i start building up enough flee lag to be bashed/spiked. Build up our lag, and we are just like anyone else...we can only flee as fast as game mechanics allow us. With us being "fleebies" as we are often called, it really shouldnt take much.
Re: Why is there such a hate on for rogues?
I wouldn't limit it to saying ds rogues are the easiest class to survive on. If you've ever played a ls/ss rogue you should know it's just as easy if you aren't lazy.
I agree about the group thing. 1 rogue, maybe 2 is cool. After that it just gets mind numbingly boring and has you thinking of ways to commit seppuku.
But these discriminations against rogues has been going on forever up to the point that we can't clan rogues on ds in any clan but Ko'bal, and then when/if we do clan we clan maybe 1 or 2 a year. The rule would be better if it didn't just exclude the current masters, but the members of the clan that were at the time clanned already before the rule was applied. Otherwise you just made the work of quite a few of these ko'bal who put time in to achieve this goal pointless.
I agree about the group thing. 1 rogue, maybe 2 is cool. After that it just gets mind numbingly boring and has you thinking of ways to commit seppuku.
But these discriminations against rogues has been going on forever up to the point that we can't clan rogues on ds in any clan but Ko'bal, and then when/if we do clan we clan maybe 1 or 2 a year. The rule would be better if it didn't just exclude the current masters, but the members of the clan that were at the time clanned already before the rule was applied. Otherwise you just made the work of quite a few of these ko'bal who put time in to achieve this goal pointless.