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Fostering an Accountable Community
Re: Fostering an Accountable Community
Re: Fostering an Accountable Community
I was considering a mail to Vampa and Feneon, or a mail to staff, or starting a new thread - so apologies if this acts to derail again.
One of the questions I was asked (in a way that seemed receptive), was what alternative punishments I thought I would be receptive to.
I'm still a bit all over the place / confused on the issue - but I figured its worth sharing and seeing what it sparks in reponse to this thread.
First - re the different levels of roleplay and minimum bar; I agree with this understanding and think its a reasonable baseline for play; and from their to encourage personal RP and choices.
That said - I think there should be very real and definitive exceptions as the norm. I'm sorry but not every whitecloak was a novice murdering psychopath, and some aes sedai would readliy revert to utilising poison. If people are gathering to defend against a trolloc attack, it makes complete sense that some CoL would work with Gaidin, and some might explicitly refuse. I think the punishment side of this stuff is way overstated - this is a game. You'll achieve so much more if you want to guide someones actions with a roleplay interactions saying.. I understand you might not have an issue with Aes Sedai but we have an image to maintain at this time as part of a greater powerplay - so I'm going to ask you to not group with Tower in pk; to either insisting that someone go murder a novice, or docking them 500qps (in these cases I don't actually know what punishments were). Likewise people shouldn't be worried on the first, or second instance of breaking rp, that it's going to lead to their declan a week or a year later. Turning around to state xxx is in the handbook or yyy is how this is always done, is so limiting.
Second - re punishments; I really really think major punishments should be specifically related to griefing.. and.. maybe specific rule-breaking and abuse that amounts to the same thing. Telling someone over and over across alts to kill themselves - that's a player ban. Murdering a new player again and again across alts, that's a severe talking to, short ban, and warning that doing this again will result in player ban, and an explanation to the new player what steps have been taken to protect them, and what to do on re-occurence. Someone swearing at someone else when they've been treated harshly, or taunted into a response,.. thats a talking to that should probably be handled by the other players online even if imms aren't available.
I look at the punishments I've had;
Declan / de-fade of Shzrei - I'm not sure where I stand on this. It was clear and obvious abuse. And there were plenty of signs that I was being watched. I feel anything like this; particularly in an early instance - should have a very specific 'this thing that you're doing is abuse, and if you do it again on his character it will result in a defade'; and sure a punishment somewhere in the vicinity of 3-10x award gained. The reason I feel this way is an awareness of dozens of masters over the years killing various clan mobs, their clan mobs, etc. And an understanding that players are fallible / justify idiotic things. I'm not saying we're right to justify them, just that they happen. A conversation to acknowledge that something is breaking the rules, and to not break that specific rule, would be more effective, and maybe create an avenue for players feeling heard rather than picked on. In this case I believe I've shared my justifications many times over.
Spamming TPs from an exploit. Clear cheating; all gains removed. Brief punishment. Discussion with Vampa for what had led to it; and.. no reoccurences. None.
Farming Rahien; with punishment across multiple characters for months - I'm still not actually sure what I was being punished for here. It wasn't that I hadn't told imms about it; I had conversations with imms in the smob itself; I had conversations with imms about how specific setups seemed designed into being able to kill it. (the officer patty E of tv had 2 no hide rooms, and a ! fire room - so on a TV wanted you had a very good chance of being killed by the mobs just trying to kill it; regardless of setup, in addition to incin backfire chance against high level mobs (I died at least 2-3 times due to people walking past and 1 shotting me). I had conversations with imms about just how hard it was and balance that could be involved. (For reference rahien himself wasn't soleable - but was duoable with the right setup). This meant that the potentiial heron great load (maybe 7-8%), wasn't soleable, couldn't be checked without something like 2 hours of work, could easily repop on you etc.
There was an exploit from killing /another/ smob - to use a key from that, which meant not using it on the other smob.. to bypass rahien and unlock the final room of rahien.. which if you were solo would then load from the lowest load table for the smob..
I gather something about my punishment was that I ran in on an alt; I don't even know why anymore, I think I had dropped the key somewhere else. But was no murdering of innocent mobs etc.
Having a mob wield a gleamer; punishment across multiple characters for months - again - this was specified as 'we can't believe what you are telling us despite having offers of multiple witnesses to corroborate and not having actually gaind or achieved anything from this happening". This wasn't me walking into someones room and giving them 10 inkies while they're afk to loot a perfect set. This was a mob that autowielded the sword from the fade thhat I had just killed in a door - and wasn't willing to loot during intense pk because I didn't want to loot an inky. The pk extended for long enough for the fade to return to the same pk (before 5 min timers), and not once in the log did it show me in the room with swirls occuring. In CCS I looked at the mob, and immediately ran the group to the door where the fade had died, picked up the sword the mob was intended to wield, and removed the gleamer on it.
Draz punished with Erulisse for flipping Baerlon from Dragonsworn. When Dragonsworn were warranted, when her R8 quest specifically designated links to convince her of the links from dragonsworn to a threat to the Tower, when Baerlon had been designated as a CTF and flipped dozens of times from both Dsworn and CoL in the past.. there was no converation, no discussion, no defence - just you are being punished for this thing that is a clear breach of RP. Draz has his council position immediately removed; with a clear indication that that won't (and hasn't been despite requests) ever be reconsidered.
Draz punished with Relena for flipping baerlon from CoL. Hilariously - one of the arguments in the Tower discussions over Erulisse was that if it had been CoL, rather than Dragonsworn, it wouldn't ever have resulted in them being punished, due to the ongoing warrant structure and the way CoL attack and murder Tower, and were persona non grata in Andor. Instead it gets outed by imms, and blown into some huge investigation that literally changes the way people can play their characters - because it a potential declan to blind or weave in combat against mobs..
What 'should' have gone on there was an investigation into how and why Draz and Relena had convinced a Lancer that Whitecloaks posed sufficient threat that Baerlon should be returned to Andoran control.. if it were sighted/raised by players.
Farming EB - I don't remember if this was actually punished or just the load removed. I still think it was way overtuned in the removal - I have yet to hear of single wicked axe loading in the chest. VS almost daily pk, traps, hunting, and the associated heralds, helping newbies, reeqing others etc. that came out of it. Almost all of the farming was groups of 4-5, occasionally 3-4. There were constant deaths and occasional TPKs, rares and uniques lost to dying and not being able to get back, all sorts.
The removal of IOMM because of something to do with the crystals.. you have a time gated (2ea 1.5 hour repops on adjacent repops), high risk, difficult and engaging smob that 'can' have high rewards. With a ton of poorly understood features that change up every day pk (I think 3 separate times I chose a 'last stand' in a room that I didn't know was !chan for my channies). Something that cleary imms put a ton of effort into - removed without.. talking to the players about what they're doing thats unintended..,
The removal of jafar puzzle palace because of keys being reused.. despite the factor of all my arguments about being able to clear all but the last 2 smobs in under 5 minutes; and the major overtune that made it pretty much unkillable without killing every mob in zone (which was still misunderstood because it still 'always' had extra mobs enter even if whole palace cleared; it being a veritable DT once imms made the gates stay open... and that as far as I know noone had been reusing keys in at least two months before it was removed..
Draz punished across all alts for 'on an alt' after a 2 month clanning process; with every single player in the clan who had contributed or posted during that time having agreed to clanning the next applicants, having already clanned multiple applicants without any negative feedback or issues arising, having discussed with the imm involved (clanning involved weird mobol for cross race stuff that wasn't well understood), being decouncilled and demastered on that alt, and the clanning program being literally put on hold - and not opened again until the race was eventually closeod - because he forgot to post a vote thread; when it was explicitly stated in the clanning drive instructions that if people wanted to no vote they should at some point, ever, post in the process.
Draz punished across all alts for 'on an alt' using a difficult mechanic to kill a cityhead loading a heron. All in all I heard of over 8 players being punished in various ways for hitting that cityhead; and didn't hear of a single heron going into the game legitimately. In this particular case; the thing being punished for was utilising grouping to enable weaving of the smob. The thing is; thats an accepted and understood mechanic in pk and multiple scenarios. Your group hits the smob; fcs walk in after. Your group hits the smob, fcs flee, and reenter. Your FC is beat; you spam kill fade/master/stabber whoever happens to be messing with them. Your fc is ungrouped in a cityhead hit..and suddenly 10 mobs hit her and she instant dies.. its a risk and a mechanic. A real and relevant risk that was suddenly decided no this is and can only be abuse.
Draz declanned, specifically not told a time limit or if reclan would happen, and on reclan 6 months later docked 2000 + qps and various rights removed. Again the specifics here as I understood them were 'if you use bonuses from your sedai in pk while they aren't there, you will be declanned'.. and.. I didn't. It wasn't - if you pk without your sedai you will be declanned.
Not one of these; as far as I can get my head around; except the one with Vampa, did anything to change the understanding behind behaviours.
The sad thing is - these punishments pale in comparison with what's been done to other individal players. And.. it really does seem to be the players that imms for some reason choose to have an issue with. One of the things raised in a prior punishment for Draz was 500+ pages of discussion of things that were being reported on that I was doing that 'weren't cheating but may as well be'. I'm sorry but why take that time; if you did the same to any active KMG, to..any one of the players who literally logs on, does their daily, and logs off, on multiple alts, any active kin or wisdom (who is good at game mechanics or not intentionally playing the character slowly), or to any person who works with any other person to achieve a specific goal.. not one of these actions comes close.
Shzrei uses an exploit. Dock him 100 qps. He does it again, 200. again.. ok fine declan, or defade; or 1 month ban. I don't understand 6 month, or 1 year, or the recently threatened 4-1/2" year punishments. It just doesn't correlate to achieving anything in respect to change.
A mc uses an exploit to farm TPs. Dock whatever gained. Discuss the exploit; have him promise not to repeat or reveal it to others. Fix it.
Farming an smob. Talk to the player. That's not as intended. In th Rahien specific case tons was done prior to the punishment that made it have real consequences. Mobs that didn't warrant could suddenly warrant. Mobs that didn't narrate suddenly narrated. Characters were hunted, and then warranted across different clans and cities.. and then suddenly out of play punishments.
In Pahar specific case. Feneon has now said; rather than just 'if something is super easy rather than super hard its probably not intended' that if anything loading a non-craftable rare is soleable - it is not intended. The thing is that's been the case on cityheads, on clan mobs, on multiple Christmas smobs and pretty much every single ongoing event thats been imped at some point. Thats the case with Taim and silver meds. The case with Murgoz. They're killable. But they're really hard to kill solo. Totally killable, just hard.
For Pahar it wasn't easy, there were specific things that made it very easy to die (being bashed by mobs, being emoted from wounded to dead, DS showing up and hitting you low and hagg to name a few), and way easier regardless to hit in a group. Multiple issues and bugs were prayed (yes know its not accountable), and messaged to Korsik (yes I know he was away.. now), and yet multiple things got amended and fixed during that timeframe.. Draz was super specific during that time to be a very loud advocate that accepted couldn't ever enter those zones (because they need to comply with a stated ban), and and also continued to question that mayene's entire banishment was out of line with what their actual zone boundaries were. Nothing was hidden. I didn't alt to farm it (excepting when foils loaded because it did too much damage to solo). Multiple others were farming and pking on the daily in the zone.
In the clanning case. Why would you stop an entire ongoing clanning process for multiple people; and kill the process, and punish the people involved over long periods - like..what did it actually achieve. If someone wanted to complain about the person clanned any post at the same time period could have easily instigated - oh yeah sorry no we need an official vote..which they woould have flown through. Any in person RP could have achieved the same. A 10qp, 20qp, even 50qp docking or 1-3 month removal of council would make sense - punishing everyone involved senselessly and then not resolving the situation.. doesn't make sense.
To be clear - I get that in some cases I've cheated. I get that imms don't agree with me that any pair of people voiping in pk, or working together to achieve the same goal, can do so more efficiently and consistently. What I'm trying to say is that if people aren't actively hurting others, in a game, why create these ludicrous punishments, without clear and open discourse.
And why have double standards. Not a punishment; but my dragonsworn is perma warranted by Tar Valon. The route to her being able to request a pardon quest? is submitting herself for stilling. Is deconstructing her clan. Is declanning. For a warrant given during war time, where Tower involved themselves (despite not being part of the war system), and after using OOC links/knowledge to draw conclusions to 'out' the clan as MCs. Sorry a conversation saying 'gate' is not witness of channelling, nor proof that other clan members are channelers. Then - over 10 year old history 'that isn't available in any of the existing, or the last iteration of the forums' is used to blacklist this character as recidivist and unable to be unwarranted. This is in opposition to the literal dozens of repeat murderers who had 3, 4 or 5 warrants repealed, perma warranted, and even those repealed, over time. I'm sorry its a firetrucking game. Its 400 years later. Maybe assume everyone firetrucking died. Move on. Dragonsworn literally had individuals submit themselves for stilling (despite my objections) to achieve this and it still got ignored. As far as I can tell this is because she channeled attacking the WT groups that had literally been attacking her minutes earlier. Sorry but WT channel against murderers, againts CoL, against anyone they're fighting in a war (including the non channeler dsworn during that war, of which there were multiple instances and proofs of WT engaging with weaves). This isn't something different or new, or a darkfriend.
All in all what I'm saying is major senseless punishments without reason and out of proportion to any gain or hurt inflicted achieve nothing; and with the exceptions of actual cheating/exploits, aren't punishing anything that isn't achievable with 1-2 players workinig in unison.
Examples of actual cheating/exploits - using mobol to instant kill mobs (or immortals), using endless TP exploits, using an exploit that creates endless gold, using an exploit to crash the game, using exploits to duplicate equipment. Example of somethingn that isn't cheating - using a clearly constructed and coded design weakness to kill an smob. Using something that is used multiple times every day in pk and has inherent risks.
I took an smob group out (I mistakenly thought the !TAR was removed; my apologies to those involved for the waste of their time/misleading their expectations). During that time I started joking around with minimal RP; talking to the accepted, narrating about needing to clear the eyeless threatening lands near Tar Valon, someone else joking about the Sal Cav involved being constantly mounted, talking about the QG master involved being extremely dedicated to saving his mob during the smob run.. etc. insisting that a gleeman come and do an impromptu show.. and it resulted in a bunch of rp qps being awarded to the various people involved for their small rps - talking to my partner about it later we were joking that me doing this 2-3 times a day for 2-3 weeks would result in an extremely resounding Draz. Stop.
Despite it engaging people playing, creating pk opportunities, creating rp opportunities, doing heralds, hitting smobs.. all day.
Maybe think on that.
Talking to the player; telling them something is unintended, or just to not do it. Is effective.
Short bans; may be effective. 3 months, 6 months, a year, four and a half years.. not so much. Any chance to change active behaviours is reset.
Thinking on it; from my perspective what I would love to see.
Imms making it clear and obvious that single, or small, infractions cannot or will not result in declans; particularly if roleplayed.
Imms not stepping in to punish players for roleplay violations in the first instance; or treating it as a game/learning mechanism if they do so.
Imms not believing that players WILL take their actions as a requirement to punish other players - seriously, you might think its unbelievable but my impression has been players think there is no other way they can interpret such direction.
Have a discord channel with an option for posts that isn't viewable by non admins for reporting bugs or things that seem to easy or griefing or player abuse etc. I'm sorry you say its easy to mail staff but given we get told specifically to contact specific staff then punished for it; or feel mails get ignored. etc. By all means imms could have other trusted people have viewing rights.
Have punishments be in line with award; and with RP or not; and with the exception of OOC griefing; not be across alts. I just cannot imagine what thought process led to this.
Have RP punishments agreed and meted out by clan councils. If a clan is choosing to go light on its individuals, you can either accept it, or tell them hey you want this to escalate in future, its not enough. Maybe give some guidance (don't declan on a first instance etc) 3 strikes punishments for gaidin/sedais that the council advised seems way more reasonable and in line than anything I've seen meted out.
Have an imm in European/Australian hours. They don't need specific power. Almost all the imms stories I've heard were people got shunted into it and had to run with it. The process you have just.. seems designed to constrain you guys and stop you from getting help. 1 or 2 imms in Aussie hours; and someone asks about a bug on discord, or something thats not functioning; and they can at least have potential to log on and see what issues players are having; or record a discussion.
One of the questions I was asked (in a way that seemed receptive), was what alternative punishments I thought I would be receptive to.
I'm still a bit all over the place / confused on the issue - but I figured its worth sharing and seeing what it sparks in reponse to this thread.
First - re the different levels of roleplay and minimum bar; I agree with this understanding and think its a reasonable baseline for play; and from their to encourage personal RP and choices.
That said - I think there should be very real and definitive exceptions as the norm. I'm sorry but not every whitecloak was a novice murdering psychopath, and some aes sedai would readliy revert to utilising poison. If people are gathering to defend against a trolloc attack, it makes complete sense that some CoL would work with Gaidin, and some might explicitly refuse. I think the punishment side of this stuff is way overstated - this is a game. You'll achieve so much more if you want to guide someones actions with a roleplay interactions saying.. I understand you might not have an issue with Aes Sedai but we have an image to maintain at this time as part of a greater powerplay - so I'm going to ask you to not group with Tower in pk; to either insisting that someone go murder a novice, or docking them 500qps (in these cases I don't actually know what punishments were). Likewise people shouldn't be worried on the first, or second instance of breaking rp, that it's going to lead to their declan a week or a year later. Turning around to state xxx is in the handbook or yyy is how this is always done, is so limiting.
Second - re punishments; I really really think major punishments should be specifically related to griefing.. and.. maybe specific rule-breaking and abuse that amounts to the same thing. Telling someone over and over across alts to kill themselves - that's a player ban. Murdering a new player again and again across alts, that's a severe talking to, short ban, and warning that doing this again will result in player ban, and an explanation to the new player what steps have been taken to protect them, and what to do on re-occurence. Someone swearing at someone else when they've been treated harshly, or taunted into a response,.. thats a talking to that should probably be handled by the other players online even if imms aren't available.
I look at the punishments I've had;
Declan / de-fade of Shzrei - I'm not sure where I stand on this. It was clear and obvious abuse. And there were plenty of signs that I was being watched. I feel anything like this; particularly in an early instance - should have a very specific 'this thing that you're doing is abuse, and if you do it again on his character it will result in a defade'; and sure a punishment somewhere in the vicinity of 3-10x award gained. The reason I feel this way is an awareness of dozens of masters over the years killing various clan mobs, their clan mobs, etc. And an understanding that players are fallible / justify idiotic things. I'm not saying we're right to justify them, just that they happen. A conversation to acknowledge that something is breaking the rules, and to not break that specific rule, would be more effective, and maybe create an avenue for players feeling heard rather than picked on. In this case I believe I've shared my justifications many times over.
Spamming TPs from an exploit. Clear cheating; all gains removed. Brief punishment. Discussion with Vampa for what had led to it; and.. no reoccurences. None.
Farming Rahien; with punishment across multiple characters for months - I'm still not actually sure what I was being punished for here. It wasn't that I hadn't told imms about it; I had conversations with imms in the smob itself; I had conversations with imms about how specific setups seemed designed into being able to kill it. (the officer patty E of tv had 2 no hide rooms, and a ! fire room - so on a TV wanted you had a very good chance of being killed by the mobs just trying to kill it; regardless of setup, in addition to incin backfire chance against high level mobs (I died at least 2-3 times due to people walking past and 1 shotting me). I had conversations with imms about just how hard it was and balance that could be involved. (For reference rahien himself wasn't soleable - but was duoable with the right setup). This meant that the potentiial heron great load (maybe 7-8%), wasn't soleable, couldn't be checked without something like 2 hours of work, could easily repop on you etc.
There was an exploit from killing /another/ smob - to use a key from that, which meant not using it on the other smob.. to bypass rahien and unlock the final room of rahien.. which if you were solo would then load from the lowest load table for the smob..
I gather something about my punishment was that I ran in on an alt; I don't even know why anymore, I think I had dropped the key somewhere else. But was no murdering of innocent mobs etc.
Having a mob wield a gleamer; punishment across multiple characters for months - again - this was specified as 'we can't believe what you are telling us despite having offers of multiple witnesses to corroborate and not having actually gaind or achieved anything from this happening". This wasn't me walking into someones room and giving them 10 inkies while they're afk to loot a perfect set. This was a mob that autowielded the sword from the fade thhat I had just killed in a door - and wasn't willing to loot during intense pk because I didn't want to loot an inky. The pk extended for long enough for the fade to return to the same pk (before 5 min timers), and not once in the log did it show me in the room with swirls occuring. In CCS I looked at the mob, and immediately ran the group to the door where the fade had died, picked up the sword the mob was intended to wield, and removed the gleamer on it.
Draz punished with Erulisse for flipping Baerlon from Dragonsworn. When Dragonsworn were warranted, when her R8 quest specifically designated links to convince her of the links from dragonsworn to a threat to the Tower, when Baerlon had been designated as a CTF and flipped dozens of times from both Dsworn and CoL in the past.. there was no converation, no discussion, no defence - just you are being punished for this thing that is a clear breach of RP. Draz has his council position immediately removed; with a clear indication that that won't (and hasn't been despite requests) ever be reconsidered.
Draz punished with Relena for flipping baerlon from CoL. Hilariously - one of the arguments in the Tower discussions over Erulisse was that if it had been CoL, rather than Dragonsworn, it wouldn't ever have resulted in them being punished, due to the ongoing warrant structure and the way CoL attack and murder Tower, and were persona non grata in Andor. Instead it gets outed by imms, and blown into some huge investigation that literally changes the way people can play their characters - because it a potential declan to blind or weave in combat against mobs..
What 'should' have gone on there was an investigation into how and why Draz and Relena had convinced a Lancer that Whitecloaks posed sufficient threat that Baerlon should be returned to Andoran control.. if it were sighted/raised by players.
Farming EB - I don't remember if this was actually punished or just the load removed. I still think it was way overtuned in the removal - I have yet to hear of single wicked axe loading in the chest. VS almost daily pk, traps, hunting, and the associated heralds, helping newbies, reeqing others etc. that came out of it. Almost all of the farming was groups of 4-5, occasionally 3-4. There were constant deaths and occasional TPKs, rares and uniques lost to dying and not being able to get back, all sorts.
The removal of IOMM because of something to do with the crystals.. you have a time gated (2ea 1.5 hour repops on adjacent repops), high risk, difficult and engaging smob that 'can' have high rewards. With a ton of poorly understood features that change up every day pk (I think 3 separate times I chose a 'last stand' in a room that I didn't know was !chan for my channies). Something that cleary imms put a ton of effort into - removed without.. talking to the players about what they're doing thats unintended..,
The removal of jafar puzzle palace because of keys being reused.. despite the factor of all my arguments about being able to clear all but the last 2 smobs in under 5 minutes; and the major overtune that made it pretty much unkillable without killing every mob in zone (which was still misunderstood because it still 'always' had extra mobs enter even if whole palace cleared; it being a veritable DT once imms made the gates stay open... and that as far as I know noone had been reusing keys in at least two months before it was removed..
Draz punished across all alts for 'on an alt' after a 2 month clanning process; with every single player in the clan who had contributed or posted during that time having agreed to clanning the next applicants, having already clanned multiple applicants without any negative feedback or issues arising, having discussed with the imm involved (clanning involved weird mobol for cross race stuff that wasn't well understood), being decouncilled and demastered on that alt, and the clanning program being literally put on hold - and not opened again until the race was eventually closeod - because he forgot to post a vote thread; when it was explicitly stated in the clanning drive instructions that if people wanted to no vote they should at some point, ever, post in the process.
Draz punished across all alts for 'on an alt' using a difficult mechanic to kill a cityhead loading a heron. All in all I heard of over 8 players being punished in various ways for hitting that cityhead; and didn't hear of a single heron going into the game legitimately. In this particular case; the thing being punished for was utilising grouping to enable weaving of the smob. The thing is; thats an accepted and understood mechanic in pk and multiple scenarios. Your group hits the smob; fcs walk in after. Your group hits the smob, fcs flee, and reenter. Your FC is beat; you spam kill fade/master/stabber whoever happens to be messing with them. Your fc is ungrouped in a cityhead hit..and suddenly 10 mobs hit her and she instant dies.. its a risk and a mechanic. A real and relevant risk that was suddenly decided no this is and can only be abuse.
Draz declanned, specifically not told a time limit or if reclan would happen, and on reclan 6 months later docked 2000 + qps and various rights removed. Again the specifics here as I understood them were 'if you use bonuses from your sedai in pk while they aren't there, you will be declanned'.. and.. I didn't. It wasn't - if you pk without your sedai you will be declanned.
Not one of these; as far as I can get my head around; except the one with Vampa, did anything to change the understanding behind behaviours.
The sad thing is - these punishments pale in comparison with what's been done to other individal players. And.. it really does seem to be the players that imms for some reason choose to have an issue with. One of the things raised in a prior punishment for Draz was 500+ pages of discussion of things that were being reported on that I was doing that 'weren't cheating but may as well be'. I'm sorry but why take that time; if you did the same to any active KMG, to..any one of the players who literally logs on, does their daily, and logs off, on multiple alts, any active kin or wisdom (who is good at game mechanics or not intentionally playing the character slowly), or to any person who works with any other person to achieve a specific goal.. not one of these actions comes close.
Shzrei uses an exploit. Dock him 100 qps. He does it again, 200. again.. ok fine declan, or defade; or 1 month ban. I don't understand 6 month, or 1 year, or the recently threatened 4-1/2" year punishments. It just doesn't correlate to achieving anything in respect to change.
A mc uses an exploit to farm TPs. Dock whatever gained. Discuss the exploit; have him promise not to repeat or reveal it to others. Fix it.
Farming an smob. Talk to the player. That's not as intended. In th Rahien specific case tons was done prior to the punishment that made it have real consequences. Mobs that didn't warrant could suddenly warrant. Mobs that didn't narrate suddenly narrated. Characters were hunted, and then warranted across different clans and cities.. and then suddenly out of play punishments.
In Pahar specific case. Feneon has now said; rather than just 'if something is super easy rather than super hard its probably not intended' that if anything loading a non-craftable rare is soleable - it is not intended. The thing is that's been the case on cityheads, on clan mobs, on multiple Christmas smobs and pretty much every single ongoing event thats been imped at some point. Thats the case with Taim and silver meds. The case with Murgoz. They're killable. But they're really hard to kill solo. Totally killable, just hard.
For Pahar it wasn't easy, there were specific things that made it very easy to die (being bashed by mobs, being emoted from wounded to dead, DS showing up and hitting you low and hagg to name a few), and way easier regardless to hit in a group. Multiple issues and bugs were prayed (yes know its not accountable), and messaged to Korsik (yes I know he was away.. now), and yet multiple things got amended and fixed during that timeframe.. Draz was super specific during that time to be a very loud advocate that accepted couldn't ever enter those zones (because they need to comply with a stated ban), and and also continued to question that mayene's entire banishment was out of line with what their actual zone boundaries were. Nothing was hidden. I didn't alt to farm it (excepting when foils loaded because it did too much damage to solo). Multiple others were farming and pking on the daily in the zone.
In the clanning case. Why would you stop an entire ongoing clanning process for multiple people; and kill the process, and punish the people involved over long periods - like..what did it actually achieve. If someone wanted to complain about the person clanned any post at the same time period could have easily instigated - oh yeah sorry no we need an official vote..which they woould have flown through. Any in person RP could have achieved the same. A 10qp, 20qp, even 50qp docking or 1-3 month removal of council would make sense - punishing everyone involved senselessly and then not resolving the situation.. doesn't make sense.
To be clear - I get that in some cases I've cheated. I get that imms don't agree with me that any pair of people voiping in pk, or working together to achieve the same goal, can do so more efficiently and consistently. What I'm trying to say is that if people aren't actively hurting others, in a game, why create these ludicrous punishments, without clear and open discourse.
And why have double standards. Not a punishment; but my dragonsworn is perma warranted by Tar Valon. The route to her being able to request a pardon quest? is submitting herself for stilling. Is deconstructing her clan. Is declanning. For a warrant given during war time, where Tower involved themselves (despite not being part of the war system), and after using OOC links/knowledge to draw conclusions to 'out' the clan as MCs. Sorry a conversation saying 'gate' is not witness of channelling, nor proof that other clan members are channelers. Then - over 10 year old history 'that isn't available in any of the existing, or the last iteration of the forums' is used to blacklist this character as recidivist and unable to be unwarranted. This is in opposition to the literal dozens of repeat murderers who had 3, 4 or 5 warrants repealed, perma warranted, and even those repealed, over time. I'm sorry its a firetrucking game. Its 400 years later. Maybe assume everyone firetrucking died. Move on. Dragonsworn literally had individuals submit themselves for stilling (despite my objections) to achieve this and it still got ignored. As far as I can tell this is because she channeled attacking the WT groups that had literally been attacking her minutes earlier. Sorry but WT channel against murderers, againts CoL, against anyone they're fighting in a war (including the non channeler dsworn during that war, of which there were multiple instances and proofs of WT engaging with weaves). This isn't something different or new, or a darkfriend.
All in all what I'm saying is major senseless punishments without reason and out of proportion to any gain or hurt inflicted achieve nothing; and with the exceptions of actual cheating/exploits, aren't punishing anything that isn't achievable with 1-2 players workinig in unison.
Examples of actual cheating/exploits - using mobol to instant kill mobs (or immortals), using endless TP exploits, using an exploit that creates endless gold, using an exploit to crash the game, using exploits to duplicate equipment. Example of somethingn that isn't cheating - using a clearly constructed and coded design weakness to kill an smob. Using something that is used multiple times every day in pk and has inherent risks.
I took an smob group out (I mistakenly thought the !TAR was removed; my apologies to those involved for the waste of their time/misleading their expectations). During that time I started joking around with minimal RP; talking to the accepted, narrating about needing to clear the eyeless threatening lands near Tar Valon, someone else joking about the Sal Cav involved being constantly mounted, talking about the QG master involved being extremely dedicated to saving his mob during the smob run.. etc. insisting that a gleeman come and do an impromptu show.. and it resulted in a bunch of rp qps being awarded to the various people involved for their small rps - talking to my partner about it later we were joking that me doing this 2-3 times a day for 2-3 weeks would result in an extremely resounding Draz. Stop.
Despite it engaging people playing, creating pk opportunities, creating rp opportunities, doing heralds, hitting smobs.. all day.
Maybe think on that.
Talking to the player; telling them something is unintended, or just to not do it. Is effective.
Short bans; may be effective. 3 months, 6 months, a year, four and a half years.. not so much. Any chance to change active behaviours is reset.
Thinking on it; from my perspective what I would love to see.
Imms making it clear and obvious that single, or small, infractions cannot or will not result in declans; particularly if roleplayed.
Imms not stepping in to punish players for roleplay violations in the first instance; or treating it as a game/learning mechanism if they do so.
Imms not believing that players WILL take their actions as a requirement to punish other players - seriously, you might think its unbelievable but my impression has been players think there is no other way they can interpret such direction.
Have a discord channel with an option for posts that isn't viewable by non admins for reporting bugs or things that seem to easy or griefing or player abuse etc. I'm sorry you say its easy to mail staff but given we get told specifically to contact specific staff then punished for it; or feel mails get ignored. etc. By all means imms could have other trusted people have viewing rights.
Have punishments be in line with award; and with RP or not; and with the exception of OOC griefing; not be across alts. I just cannot imagine what thought process led to this.
Have RP punishments agreed and meted out by clan councils. If a clan is choosing to go light on its individuals, you can either accept it, or tell them hey you want this to escalate in future, its not enough. Maybe give some guidance (don't declan on a first instance etc) 3 strikes punishments for gaidin/sedais that the council advised seems way more reasonable and in line than anything I've seen meted out.
Have an imm in European/Australian hours. They don't need specific power. Almost all the imms stories I've heard were people got shunted into it and had to run with it. The process you have just.. seems designed to constrain you guys and stop you from getting help. 1 or 2 imms in Aussie hours; and someone asks about a bug on discord, or something thats not functioning; and they can at least have potential to log on and see what issues players are having; or record a discussion.
Re: Fostering an Accountable Community
I'm not a hero, but I put that through chatGPT and asked for a summary of each paragraph so you don't have to.
1. I was considering various communication methods and apologize if this derails the conversation.
2. When asked about alternative punishments, I found it worth sharing my thoughts here.
3. Regarding roleplay levels, I agree with the minimum bar and believe in encouraging personal RP choices with exceptions.
4. Punishments should be reserved for griefing and specific rule-breaking, while minor offenses should involve player intervention.
5. Punishments I've received didn't change my understanding of behaviors, suggesting a need for clear communication before punitive actions.
6. Severe punishments should be related to clear rule-breaking like cheating, with progressive consequences for repeated offenses.
7. Farming should involve discussing unintended actions with players rather than punitive measures.
8. Inconsistent punishments, like my experiences with various characters, highlight the need for clear guidelines and communication.
9. Senseless punishments without reason fail to achieve behavior change and often involve unjustified severity.
10. Players shouldn't face severe consequences for minor infractions or roleplay violations, especially on the first instance.
11. Establishing clear communication channels, like a dedicated Discord for reporting, can improve transparency and handling of issues.
12. Punishments should align with the nature of the offense, with RP violations addressed within clan councils and OOC griefing handled separately.
13. Having Imms in different time zones can help address player issues promptly and ensure better communication and support.
1. I was considering various communication methods and apologize if this derails the conversation.
2. When asked about alternative punishments, I found it worth sharing my thoughts here.
3. Regarding roleplay levels, I agree with the minimum bar and believe in encouraging personal RP choices with exceptions.
4. Punishments should be reserved for griefing and specific rule-breaking, while minor offenses should involve player intervention.
5. Punishments I've received didn't change my understanding of behaviors, suggesting a need for clear communication before punitive actions.
6. Severe punishments should be related to clear rule-breaking like cheating, with progressive consequences for repeated offenses.
7. Farming should involve discussing unintended actions with players rather than punitive measures.
8. Inconsistent punishments, like my experiences with various characters, highlight the need for clear guidelines and communication.
9. Senseless punishments without reason fail to achieve behavior change and often involve unjustified severity.
10. Players shouldn't face severe consequences for minor infractions or roleplay violations, especially on the first instance.
11. Establishing clear communication channels, like a dedicated Discord for reporting, can improve transparency and handling of issues.
12. Punishments should align with the nature of the offense, with RP violations addressed within clan councils and OOC griefing handled separately.
13. Having Imms in different time zones can help address player issues promptly and ensure better communication and support.
Re: Fostering an Accountable Community
... wow
Thankyou
Thankyou
Re: Fostering an Accountable Community
Thank you Reil!reil wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2024 12:12 pmI'm not a hero, but I put that through chatGPT and asked for a summary of each paragraph so you don't have to.
1. I was considering various communication methods and apologize if this derails the conversation.
2. When asked about alternative punishments, I found it worth sharing my thoughts here.
3. Regarding roleplay levels, I agree with the minimum bar and believe in encouraging personal RP choices with exceptions.
4. Punishments should be reserved for griefing and specific rule-breaking, while minor offenses should involve player intervention.
5. Punishments I've received didn't change my understanding of behaviors, suggesting a need for clear communication before punitive actions.
6. Severe punishments should be related to clear rule-breaking like cheating, with progressive consequences for repeated offenses.
7. Farming should involve discussing unintended actions with players rather than punitive measures.
8. Inconsistent punishments, like my experiences with various characters, highlight the need for clear guidelines and communication.
9. Senseless punishments without reason fail to achieve behavior change and often involve unjustified severity.
10. Players shouldn't face severe consequences for minor infractions or roleplay violations, especially on the first instance.
11. Establishing clear communication channels, like a dedicated Discord for reporting, can improve transparency and handling of issues.
12. Punishments should align with the nature of the offense, with RP violations addressed within clan councils and OOC griefing handled separately.
13. Having Imms in different time zones can help address player issues promptly and ensure better communication and support.
I mean this unironically: I agree with all of these points and think that they are great suggestions, and would ask that they be considered seriously. I also understand that as much as I like him as a player, Draz has a tendency to find and take advantage of mechanics in the game, and that leads to a lot of frustration on the Immortals' part, and that needs to change and we need to all keep him and all other players accountable.
As a Red Sitter, I felt very conflicted on the Relena situation in Baerlon because it was perfectly within my character and Ajah's roleplay to take a very harsh stance, and felt forced to pursue very strict outcomes that I knew were ICly appropriate, but concerned about major OOC consequences that felt unfair to them as a player. The same goes for a similar situation with Ylsa. Both came to the Hall's attention purely based on Immortal-controlled mobs coming to us in game or via mail in an effort to keep a player accountable, and both resulted in those players quitting, both of whom were really big contributors to a really positive environment and to their clans.
Re: Fostering an Accountable Community
I am not about to quote your post, for obvious reasons.
Draz, the issue is that no matter what we've done you continue to do things that most any other player would realize they're not supposed to do. You are in a relatively powerful player position, being a knowledgeable high ranking player who often takes groups of others out for PvE and PvP activities both. If we did not respond to the times you abuse the game's mechanics so wantonly, others will begin to think that they can too. That they should, because that's how you get ahead. It is, after all, a game. You have influence in it, and you're using it to denigrate the game and its players both.
Of note, a few things:
We do have issues with individual players, and those are the repeat egregious offenders. We've had people who issued hundreds of items, alted them, turned them in for quest points, while at the same time multiplaying cross-race (all one person) or people who would turn in items for quest points and then use the ability to see in the dark to steal the item back without normal repercussions kicking in hundreds of times and then loudly and publicly claimed we were unfairly targeting them, and in both cases those were just one small portion of what they were abusing. We don't choose to have an issue with anyone, they choose to abuse the game in a way that invalidates the time investment that others make or outright cheat and we have no choice but to do what we're responsible for which is administrate the game and its players.
Draz, the issue is that no matter what we've done you continue to do things that most any other player would realize they're not supposed to do. You are in a relatively powerful player position, being a knowledgeable high ranking player who often takes groups of others out for PvE and PvP activities both. If we did not respond to the times you abuse the game's mechanics so wantonly, others will begin to think that they can too. That they should, because that's how you get ahead. It is, after all, a game. You have influence in it, and you're using it to denigrate the game and its players both.
Of note, a few things:
- We reward bug reporting.
- We have a staff forum mailbox for reporting things that are abuseable.
- I have, on innumerable occasions, asked you to mail anything you want to report to our group mail.
- You haven't started mailing these things, instead insisting that we can see prayers people send when none of us are online - which we can't - let alone begun to desist from such behaviors.
We do have issues with individual players, and those are the repeat egregious offenders. We've had people who issued hundreds of items, alted them, turned them in for quest points, while at the same time multiplaying cross-race (all one person) or people who would turn in items for quest points and then use the ability to see in the dark to steal the item back without normal repercussions kicking in hundreds of times and then loudly and publicly claimed we were unfairly targeting them, and in both cases those were just one small portion of what they were abusing. We don't choose to have an issue with anyone, they choose to abuse the game in a way that invalidates the time investment that others make or outright cheat and we have no choice but to do what we're responsible for which is administrate the game and its players.
Re: Fostering an Accountable Community
Thanks.
What I'm saying is disassociated and far out of proportion punishments don't achieve the effects yoi want. Almost without exception talking to those who have changed attitudes the changes haven't been punishment driven, they've been when the issues were discussed, or the players grew out of it, or rarely in a first instance punishment that is in proportion.
Anecdotally - yesterday I was chatting to a player about another mud and after a couple hours they mentioned an exploit they had done to beat a mob... that took hours and days worth of effort at the level they were. They achieved it. And concluded that it wasn't worth nearly the time or effort to repeat... but no regret or change behaviour because they achieved something difficult. It reminded me of playing wow (same day my partner was asking me if I would play with her) and taking hours, days, dying again and again to explore and kill a mob in a challenging area. 3-4 days later I went through the area at an appropriate level in what felt like minutes.
What I'm trying to say here is that outside of actual cheating - none of this hasn't been done wantonly at various stages by sig. Proportions of the playerbase.
People understand combat mechanics better, repops, hit fleeing, whatever.. but none of what is actively focused on now approaches the scripting or one sidedness of a decade ago, or two.
I don't get ahead through these things; I very seldom get a sig. advantage from them. Not one thing I've done (and listed as an issue), compares to running to pk 3-4x a day and whining for a scalp. Of all the eq Ive farmed solo it doesn't come close to what Ive gotten from occasional solo kills.
The difference is I don't hide. And haven't quit.
What I'm saying is disassociated and far out of proportion punishments don't achieve the effects yoi want. Almost without exception talking to those who have changed attitudes the changes haven't been punishment driven, they've been when the issues were discussed, or the players grew out of it, or rarely in a first instance punishment that is in proportion.
Anecdotally - yesterday I was chatting to a player about another mud and after a couple hours they mentioned an exploit they had done to beat a mob... that took hours and days worth of effort at the level they were. They achieved it. And concluded that it wasn't worth nearly the time or effort to repeat... but no regret or change behaviour because they achieved something difficult. It reminded me of playing wow (same day my partner was asking me if I would play with her) and taking hours, days, dying again and again to explore and kill a mob in a challenging area. 3-4 days later I went through the area at an appropriate level in what felt like minutes.
What I'm trying to say here is that outside of actual cheating - none of this hasn't been done wantonly at various stages by sig. Proportions of the playerbase.
People understand combat mechanics better, repops, hit fleeing, whatever.. but none of what is actively focused on now approaches the scripting or one sidedness of a decade ago, or two.
I don't get ahead through these things; I very seldom get a sig. advantage from them. Not one thing I've done (and listed as an issue), compares to running to pk 3-4x a day and whining for a scalp. Of all the eq Ive farmed solo it doesn't come close to what Ive gotten from occasional solo kills.
The difference is I don't hide. And haven't quit.
Re: Fostering an Accountable Community
Also
The time investment thing
Someone logs in for ten min; slaughters someone else pking crit for hours.
Someone logs in 6x a day, wipes a half dozen smobs, solo, and rents or alts.
Someone consistently sells out shops (LS or DS).. every single day, for weeks or months.
Someone logs, does their daily, rents, then does it to three other alts.
Someone logs, scouts 60-70 smobs in about 20min, and kills whichever have rares.
All of these happen. Daily, weekly, monthly.
They don't promote group play. They don't promote rp. They don't promote fun pk. They don't keep players.
Know what does? Literally everything I do.
I don't turn people away from smobs, pk, or rp.
I don't exclude people who ask to be included.
I don't have quiet little 1v1s day in day out and whine when someone else shows up.
I don't hide mechanics unless specifically asked to.
I don't lie (intentionally) or grief others (intentionally)
I don't do unhittable cityhits (I can't think of one where we were hit by more than 2 players during the hit and survived/completed)
I always volunteer to help if I know how.
I always run to save someone.
I always defend someone i feel is being bullied.
I do occasionally lose my dung.
I do get defensive about this stuff.
The time investment thing
Someone logs in for ten min; slaughters someone else pking crit for hours.
Someone logs in 6x a day, wipes a half dozen smobs, solo, and rents or alts.
Someone consistently sells out shops (LS or DS).. every single day, for weeks or months.
Someone logs, does their daily, rents, then does it to three other alts.
Someone logs, scouts 60-70 smobs in about 20min, and kills whichever have rares.
All of these happen. Daily, weekly, monthly.
They don't promote group play. They don't promote rp. They don't promote fun pk. They don't keep players.
Know what does? Literally everything I do.
I don't turn people away from smobs, pk, or rp.
I don't exclude people who ask to be included.
I don't have quiet little 1v1s day in day out and whine when someone else shows up.
I don't hide mechanics unless specifically asked to.
I don't lie (intentionally) or grief others (intentionally)
I don't do unhittable cityhits (I can't think of one where we were hit by more than 2 players during the hit and survived/completed)
I always volunteer to help if I know how.
I always run to save someone.
I always defend someone i feel is being bullied.
I do occasionally lose my dung.
I do get defensive about this stuff.
Re: Fostering an Accountable Community
I can think of literally two instances where increasing punishments did not have the desired effect: Erulisse and Draz. I can think of one that was difficult, waiting only 15 seconds between alts, regardless of sides. That player was spoken with live, only to not stick to the 5/30 min rule within days and then repeatedly again over weeks. And it wasn't even a matter of us actively looking to catch him, it would just happen live as we were online. At one point, the zaps didn't work and he got increasingly long bans. That ended up working after the longest ban. The player comes and goes and has been for more than a decade, without issue. All this to say that you are hardly qualified to speak on what works with regards to punishments as a whole, because I've seen hundreds, if not thousands and few people are recidivists to the extent a handful of players are.
What is one of the things you used to see mentioned a lot about imms? Playing favorites. Usually these comments were unwarranted and there are reason for a difference in treatment. For example someone who doesn't pk not having the same qp generating capacity, so they will often get a lighter qp docking. Which would not be because of the individual and whether imms like them or not, but a method of punishments as a whole and then applied to the individual. I'm mentioning this because it speaks of people's perception that something not being a level playing field is something to speak out against. But, that also means that if someone cuts corners, in order for people to feel the game is worth their time, Staff needs to strive to make it a level playing field.
It also means that if someone has a list of shady stuff as long as the player of Draz, yes, those punishments are going to be catered to the individual as well. And yes, a lot has been tried. As we did with Erulisse. And we all know the outcome of that.
You know that quote? Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans.
For Staff it is: "policing is what happens while you're working on other things".
And this is how individuals' behavior actively hampers the development and growth of the game. And again, that means we either have the option of making it a cheating haven, which again isn't good for the game either because people want a level playing field, OR we spend time actually enforcing things.
If you (Draz) had reported your findings in the exact way various Staff members have told you repeatedly over the past few years, e.g. DO NOT PRAY, MAIL STAFF, then we wouldn't even be having this discussion. You can blame Staff as much as you want, but at some point you are going to have to reflect on your own role in this. It's a shame we can't disable your prays without also disabling narrates, but trust me, that was something that was actively mentioned among Staff, because it might be the only thing that works for you, as an individual. A low bar, but eh, here we are.
What is one of the things you used to see mentioned a lot about imms? Playing favorites. Usually these comments were unwarranted and there are reason for a difference in treatment. For example someone who doesn't pk not having the same qp generating capacity, so they will often get a lighter qp docking. Which would not be because of the individual and whether imms like them or not, but a method of punishments as a whole and then applied to the individual. I'm mentioning this because it speaks of people's perception that something not being a level playing field is something to speak out against. But, that also means that if someone cuts corners, in order for people to feel the game is worth their time, Staff needs to strive to make it a level playing field.
It also means that if someone has a list of shady stuff as long as the player of Draz, yes, those punishments are going to be catered to the individual as well. And yes, a lot has been tried. As we did with Erulisse. And we all know the outcome of that.
You know that quote? Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans.
For Staff it is: "policing is what happens while you're working on other things".
And this is how individuals' behavior actively hampers the development and growth of the game. And again, that means we either have the option of making it a cheating haven, which again isn't good for the game either because people want a level playing field, OR we spend time actually enforcing things.
If you (Draz) had reported your findings in the exact way various Staff members have told you repeatedly over the past few years, e.g. DO NOT PRAY, MAIL STAFF, then we wouldn't even be having this discussion. You can blame Staff as much as you want, but at some point you are going to have to reflect on your own role in this. It's a shame we can't disable your prays without also disabling narrates, but trust me, that was something that was actively mentioned among Staff, because it might be the only thing that works for you, as an individual. A low bar, but eh, here we are.
Re: Fostering an Accountable Community
Again
I'll reiterate
We literally were told to tell korsik when raising issues about TAR. Multiple times. Multiple people. Multiple days.
I mail staff for replicable or unexpected bugs, abuse, or fuckups. Doing something thats difficult, or near impossible, or extremely time consuming, when told to report something that seems too easy, doesn't signify.
Telling korsik immediately about mobs not engaging, then not engaging in a different setting, then not killing master mobs, then a weird stacked emote, or not engaging then bashing you from full, then loading naked, then loading naked again, and seeing these get fixed. Telling group members to mail staff/report bug of mobs not engaging at night, and those group members being told to tell korsik...
Smobs where I am literally discussing how freaking hard it is with an imm in the room isn't something I expect to report for abuse
I'll reiterate
We literally were told to tell korsik when raising issues about TAR. Multiple times. Multiple people. Multiple days.
I mail staff for replicable or unexpected bugs, abuse, or fuckups. Doing something thats difficult, or near impossible, or extremely time consuming, when told to report something that seems too easy, doesn't signify.
Telling korsik immediately about mobs not engaging, then not engaging in a different setting, then not killing master mobs, then a weird stacked emote, or not engaging then bashing you from full, then loading naked, then loading naked again, and seeing these get fixed. Telling group members to mail staff/report bug of mobs not engaging at night, and those group members being told to tell korsik...
Smobs where I am literally discussing how freaking hard it is with an imm in the room isn't something I expect to report for abuse