Proposal: Remove PB from the bash landing calculation

[Rig]

Well, let’s stop the weird spread of misinformation real quick. Quick look of the spreadsheet with all of the information shows finely axe and saw tooth doing 5d8 and 6d6 damage. Steel flanged doing 6d6. You won’t find a single other non-rare combo weapon keeping up in dice rolls when compared to abs weapons. Let’s talk about how many people are using steel flanged and saw tooth in pvp

The majority of abs weapons go above and beyond those numbers. So it’s kind of disingenuous to phrase it in a way that makes it seem like abs isn’t keeping up in the field of damage when it’s actually over performing in comparison.

[Eadmund]

Not sure who you are responding to or calling disingenuous.. but I'll take a crack at your reply.

From what I can gather from your post, you are arguing that ABS weapons are strong and don't require any changes. Ok. I agree and disagree.

And just so we're on the same page here, I merely stated as an idea to help fix ABS players in general that ABS weapons be upped in Damage. I also stated a bunch of other ideas...

Now, let's talk Combo weapons. What are the best Damage/Deffence/Bash combo weapons?
Tied for first place: A finely crafted axe
Tied for first place: A shining silver plated sword
Worst than the shining silver plated but better than the rest : An ivory and gold-hilted longsword

The finely axe has 79 OB, 23 PB, 15 lbs and a mean damage of 22.5
The silver plated has 80 OB, 30 PB, 14.8 lbs and a mean damage of 18

The tradeoff between the two is easy to see, one has higher damage but lower deff and vice versa.

The I&G sword has 75 OB, 30 PB, 14.5 lbs and a mean damage of 20

This sword has less OB even though it's a long blade class, same parry as silver plated and weighs less than the silver plated which doesn't make up for the slightly higher damage imo.

The finely axe and the silver plated bash almost the same (off by 1%) but both bash twice as good as the I&G vs full dodge.

I won't be comparing any other combo weapons vs abs weapons since everything other than those two is either niche (bone club smash! but with 10 PB it's not sustainable for combo) or not worth mentioning.

Now, let's take 4 ABS weapons.
A silver-banded war mallet has 78 OB, 0 PB, 18.2 lbs and a mean damage of 22
A great claymore has 90 OB, 0 PB, 17.2 lbs and a mean damage of 21
A wickedly scythed longsword has 94 OB, 4 PB, 16.5 lbs and a mean damage of 21
A long halberd has 88 OB, 4 PB, 17.5 lbs and a mean damage of 21

Right off the bat, you can see how the finely axe outperforms all the above in damage right? The finely axe doesn't ever have to bash the abser either. Every hit is garaunteed to land.. Sorry, I'm not sure how to spell that out more clearly. The comboer by default has the advantage over the abser in pure melee damage.

Since both the combo and abs weapons have a max bash landing rate that only changes if the weapon is a club but have the same odds of landing regardless of the weight difference. So there's really no advantage to being an abser when combo weapons (the most relevant ones anyways) out class them.

Now, it's important to remember that this is just a part of the comparison of a combo setup vs an abs setup and like I said in my other post the idea of Upping abs weapons Damage was a possibility that could help make ABS setups shine more and be more attractive to try. Sort of like a glass cannon, but with a longer timer. (Large damage but easily whittled down)

I do see how if abs weapons were upped in damage the fight vs a dodger would become almost moot since the abser would probably destroy the armorless dodger with their increased bash landing chance vs a combo weapon.

That said, feel free to check the other ideas I suggested and try not to take a personal attack stance... I'm just trying to better something we all appreciate not trying to put down anyones work.

[reil]

Can anyone confirm or deny that the bonus rank damage is mitigated by abs?

ABS vs multiple masters with combo rares does feel very bad, vs another abser doesn't feel too far off though...

It's been denied before, but I sees what I sees.

[Prykor]

better idea:

mood wimpy adds 5 pulses (half a round) to the timer of all channeled abilities

mood normal adds 2 pulses

mood brave stays with the current

and mood berserk reduces the timer by 1 pulse.


That way channelers will need to manage their mood in combat for the same reasons that everybody else does.

[Olajuwon]

Wonder how hard it would be for abs to reduce weave dmg?
What I have noticed from a small sample size of playing DS rogue is that if I'm fighting a non-master ABS or Combo, in a perfect set, I'm bashed probably 1/4 which seems pretty fair. Change the matchup to a master and I'm bashed like 4/5 by a finely axe.
The difference is ABS can just be flee hit to death and even with no clan dmg bonus I can shred most abs matchups. Change the matchup to combo and I don't even land a melee hit while I stand there getting smoked by an axe that can be easily obtained 1/1 by stabbing poor old Elyas.

The stat overhaul would be interesting, and I wouldn't be opposed to it except it might create a massive divide between the top bonused chars and the lowly peasant pker. Imagine having a 16 con rogue and getting bashed by a zerk fade. Half your hps gone

[Kryyg]

There are many ways to balance things. One way used to be rarity of top end dodge and combo and ease of abs.

I’ve been playing abs the last few days and it’s utter trash. There is a reason absers are the bread and butter of people to kill easily. Lesser skilled players have no firetrucking chance.

The abs weapons firetrucking suck. The bash % landing is basically the same as combo. The damage is basically the same as combo. Abs items need to give OB bonus or HP regen bonus. Or something to make it viable. Abs weapons need two extra dice across the board. When you land a bash or hit. It should hurt the same as 2-3 combo hits.

Or make this full combo dung rarer because EQ has become some plentiful we are now basically playing death match. Despite this half the remaining players still play like turds.

Give me a full non rare combo kit and I’ll kill 10-20 people before I die.

Give me a full non rare abs kit and I’ll kill 1-2 before I die.

Give me a full rare or unique combo kit and I could get to 100+

Give me a full rare/unique abs weapon and it’s still 1-2 before I die.

Everyone higher up and everyone in the game loves combo and dodge because it’s overpowered. Thats why everyone plays it.

If everyone is 19 19 19 then stats are a non issue.

The bash calculations also make no sense. I choose a heavier long sword and bash worse than a claymore.

[reil]

If everyone is 19 19 19 then stats are a non issue.

lol it is an issue though. Combo and dodge use all 3/3 of those physical stats heavily, abs really only gives a dung about 2/3. I promise you if you keep everything the same but the guy who is 19 16 19 suddenly the only character type with 415+ hps and everybody you currently see in combo/dodge have sub 370 hps (because they've sacrificed the hps to max out str/dex), you will absolutely notice it. Cap flee lag reduction/build up rate at the 12 wil tier and even more. You can't balance equipment purely on the limited equipment dimensions that exist on this game - there's a reason why most games have stats that play a role in the character's build and we've just trivialized it completely over the years to the point where nothing we do to try to balance the equipment itself will actually work out because, hey, guess what, my 420 hp rogue is going to probably be much harder to kill and even be more offensively viable than your 420 hp abser.

Also as an abser, if I'm fighting, I'm not at all concerned by combo or combo weapons. It's the dodgers with attack that are waaaaaaay more detrimental. You down combo, you intrinsically up them and provide even more perverse incentive for dodge/short blades set ups and channelers. I'm more concerned about that than any kind of need for combo to actually be insane (which it absolutely is with top-end rare weapons, but I don't remember the last time a non-rare combo weapon moved the meter for me on any character).

Best fix to ABS itself is figuring out the quirks with rank damage. Just don't do something dumb and add even more discrepancy between warriors and hunters when it comes to playing abs - you have to be on a different planet not to recognize +5 ob (on top of 21 str for DS warriors) and damage mitigation against every patrol and city is a massive, massive innate bonus that makes it hard to balance equipment across all the classes.

And all this being said, I don't think balance is in the direst state I've seen it in the past 4 years. I think everything is playable if you're not used to combo fade like Matheus. That was definitely when you could bash somebody and watch yourself miss bashed hits on them pretty consistently because everyone had 200 parry, or that time warriors were just invincible for several months.

[Prykor]

The abs weapons chortlesnorfling suck. The bash % landing is basically the same as combo. The damage is basically the same as combo. Abs items need to give OB bonus or HP regen bonus. Or something to make it viable. Abs weapons need two extra dice across the board. When you land a bash or hit. It should hurt the same as 2-3 combo hits.

I'd recommend upping the bash maximum from 60% to 73% for 2h weapons.

Or make this full combo dung rarer because EQ has become some plentiful we are now basically playing death match. Despite this half the remaining players still play like turds.

Make murgoz equipment have stats on par with actual rare equipment. Tie it exclusively to the chest to give extra abs to everything else, and also reduce abs decay rate -- 88% abs with full mend in a full abs set, and without the additional OB/PB penalties from extra weight that murgoz currently has.

Finely tunic/riv combo is garbage, as heavy combo with an ornate shirt has notably more defense AND abs%. non L/M-blade rares suck because you don't hit the ~250 def threshold of being wimpy where a 1v1 won't get your defense broken by non-uniques 95% of time.

The bash calculations also make no sense. I choose a heavier long sword and bash worse than a claymore.

Yea that sacred cow needs to get sent to the chop shop. Open bash calc for different OB/PB/weight weightings, and more notable differences between 1h and 2h set ups with respect to bashing -- such as my bash max recommendation.

What's the point in 2h rare abs weapons when 1h combo weapons do just as much damage, but also can change mood wimpy and not get hit outside of being sat? going from 99% bash to 95% or 90% for combo set ups only matters with troll pracs, and the difference really have a notable impact outside of bashing full dodge set ups, and even then RNG spikes make the feel rather inconsistent.

[Kryyg]

If everyone is 19 19 19 then stats are a non issue.

lol it is an issue though. Combo and dodge use all 3/3 of those physical stats heavily, abs really only gives a dung about 2/3. I promise you if you keep everything the same but the guy who is 19 16 19 suddenly the only character type with 415+ hps and everybody you currently see in combo/dodge have sub 370 hps (because they've sacrificed the hps to max out str/dex), you will absolutely notice it. Cap flee lag reduction/build up rate at the 12 wil tier and even more. You can't balance equipment purely on the limited equipment dimensions that exist on this game - there's a reason why most games have stats that play a role in the character's build and we've just trivialized it completely over the years to the point where nothing we do to try to balance the equipment itself will actually work out because, hey, guess what, my 420 hp rogue is going to probably be much harder to kill and even be more offensively viable than your 420 hp abser.

Also as an abser, if I'm fighting, I'm not at all concerned by combo or combo weapons. It's the dodgers with attack that are waaaaaaay more detrimental. You down combo, you intrinsically up them and provide even more perverse incentive for dodge/short blades set ups and channelers. I'm more concerned about that than any kind of need for combo to actually be insane (which it absolutely is with top-end rare weapons, but I don't remember the last time a non-rare combo weapon moved the meter for me on any character).

Best fix to ABS itself is figuring out the quirks with rank damage. Just don't do something dumb and add even more discrepancy between warriors and hunters when it comes to playing abs - you have to be on a different planet not to recognize +5 ob (on top of 21 str for DS warriors) and damage mitigation against every patrol and city is a massive, massive innate bonus that makes it hard to balance equipment across all the classes.

And all this being said, I don't think balance is in the direst state I've seen it in the past 4 years. I think everything is playable if you're not used to combo fade like Matheus. That was definitely when you could bash somebody and watch yourself miss bashed hits on them pretty consistently because everyone had 200 parry, or that time warriors were just invincible for several months.

Simply not true. Even if I was 18 15 19. I’d still go combo and be way ahead of an abser. I know this because I did it. No one mains an an abser and most of you never did because combo and dodge became so plentiful there is a generation of players who never played abs. Everyone fades a rogue.

I do agree the balance isn’t terrible in today’s game. The problem with making everything so plentiful is that rare combo weapons aren’t actually rare anymore. They have become the standard. Which is fine but rare abs weapons are not significantly better and by nature will never be more plentiful because no one is going to craft them. If the cost is similar. Everyone will get combo weapons. It just makes sense. You will survive longer and enjoy it longer. Probably kill more too.

I agree. Rogue con should be capped at 16.

[reil]

Simply not true. Even if I was 18 15 19. I’d still go combo and be way ahead of an abser. I know this because I did it.

Maybe if the abser is also you. But let's pretend 18 15 19 is intrinsically worse in combo than 19 18 19 or 18 19 19 and there's some sacrifice in defense being made there and you're going to get your ass shredded easily by 2+ people. Besides, I'm not suggesting we *only* balance with stats.

No one mains an an abser and most of you never did because combo and dodge became so plentiful there is a generation of players who never played abs. Everyone fades a rogue.

Stop projecting, most people have mained and mastered more absers than you've played characters. Probably because they've played something besides fade and combo attacking melee weapon paired with Kajin-baiting in the two decades. smdh.

I do agree the balance isn’t terrible in today’s game. The problem with making everything so plentiful is that rare combo weapons aren’t actually rare anymore. They have become the standard. Which is fine but rare abs weapons are not significantly better and by nature will never be more plentiful because no one is going to craft them. If the cost is similar. Everyone will get combo weapons. It just makes sense. You will survive longer and enjoy it longer. Probably kill more too.

Just make abs craftable weapons cheaper then or just rebalance regular abs weapons to perform like current craftable abs weapons. I personally don't want to up the survivability on anything (dodge/abs/combo) or turn any weapons into tickle sticks. I'd rather up normal abs weapons and let the advantage of abs be that it's the one set up you can grab basics, a weapon, and a vial and still be pretty competitive.

I agree. Rogue con should be capped at 16.

I'm glad we agree and I'm sure we also agree that we simply must demort Jestin back to rogue in this scenario.