To clarify, and echo what Aureus said, I posted explicit examples of things that I would consider abuse and that I modified because I caught them. These things also end up hurting the average player. My post included a lot of reflections without a real solution, but as an active immortal who regularly nerfs things, I wanted to give context around my thought process. It's changing, but I don't delight in what Aureus mentioned happened to him with modifying Evil Elyas.
Ten hours spent on modifications to prevent a small subset from doing something that they later figured out a new optimal strategy to do seems cool for players, but feels terrible and like a waste of time. As loads get downed often the consideration tends to be some form of cost analysis.
Other staff members feel as Aureus feels, that "it's really Imms' responsibility to fix this sort of thing and not players' job to always be worried about whatever tactics they are using, but it is a massive time sink and we're only human (and volunteers at that)". I have moved more toward this perspective in the last few months, but the problem is then when it comes to my incentives to change things (and I used the cityhead example specifically) I lose a lot of motivation for doing a large project when it ends up being counter to the intent and then farmed when the load isn't working correctly.
The initial post is just to provide insight and context around what I consider an obnoxious thing to contend with. E.g. rewarding PVE that isn't just rewarding for those who can farm it regularly. I think figuring out rewards for defenders is a good approach to making cityheads difficult. But, maybe clarifying what changes people can expect when hitting a city-head and then making adjustments so players don't assume it is broken and simply abandon the effort would be beneficial for both parties. It's really hard to conceptually balance what a cityhead will do when active players are there to show up when they are often farmed off hours. This makes them seem like smobs. They are not meant to be smobs.
With regard to adding more rules, it's not the answer we're going for and it's not the answer to smobbing. Reyne's post would be an example of where adding more rules to PVE and instituting speeding tickets or warnings for infractions would be a net loss for player activity.
As I mentioned, Gretchen, in the previous post, we are looking at smobbing.
Are players leaving?
Re: Are players leaving?
I’ll save any thoughts on smobs and what’s been done until you guys are finished looking at it then. But I think we need to change how we view smobbing in general. Some of these players have really good points which I’m sure you’re aware of imms. Thank you Elysia and Areolas and Feneon.
Re: Are players leaving?
This 100%, I think we had over 20 different players involved in this at one point or another. We did keep it quiet in terms of choosing who we invited that did not have DS mains, as we didnt want DS rogues stabbing us while we were setting things up or crit from a hit, in the same way that I don't generally tell everyone all the tricks to whatever thing my OCD nature has me fixated on at the moment, but am happy to share past experiences on anything i am not current farming (if anyone wants to know how to solo evil elyas, hit me up (assuming that its ok now that theres no rare load?), there's two strategies that *can* work). Also have not had good experiences sharing anything with imms before, as it has always been met with silence or complaints in the past except on extremely buggy things (like the infinite free vial load that I found).Reyne wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 1:35 pmb) if it was more widely known then it would become much more dangerous to do (DS/SS might be waiting at the portal stones, etc) - and it was already very dangerous (see below). It also wasn't a particular secret.Aureus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 1:05 pm3. The cases Feneon is mentioning are things like 2 players figuring out how to hit Evil Elyas using only projectiles, when he loads a rare uncraftable axe that is essentially a heron 100% of the time, and then farming that mob on repeat for weeks -- dozens of hits. These players kept the tactics quiet, and I can't say why, but a reasonable observer might conclude that they thought if it became widely known it would get nerfed (ie, it was not intended or gave an unfair advantage). In this scenario, the Imm staff has to 1.) put in place monitoring and then check it periodically for this sort of thing, and 2.) spend a bunch of time tweaking the smob to prevent these tactics while not making it impossible for a normal group to hit. I think I personally spent upwards of 10 hours monitoring and tweaking this smob, and ultimately I just had to nerf the axe load from 100% so I could move on to other things. At the end of the day, my view is it's really Imms' responsibility to fix this sort of thing and not players' job to always be worried about whatever tactics they are using, but it is a massive time sink and we're only human (and volunteers at that). So we do get annoyed and frustrated when it feels like players probably recognize this is too-good-to-be-true and then take advantage of it to its fullest and keep it quiet rather than check in with Imms. Then if specific players have been warned about this before because there is a pattern of it, it can start to become a problem and veer into "abuse" territory. It will never be a problem for someone just playing the game unaware.
...
To be clear, it takes skill to clear that without dying. Most people we brought in there died. A lot. People lost sets more than once. It emphatically did NOT feel too-good-to-be-true to me or I would have asked about it as I did with the angreal. That zone is a nightmare. If someone aren't familiar with it then a deer is likely to kill them. Elyas' emote still one shots you if you fail a weave and don't immediately flee out. There were many deaths and trials before the tactic was honed in on so neatly. Even then it felt very dangerous every time we did it because one small error = death.
I had always felt that the axe load should have been moved to mole king which is significantly harder and only loads a gring, while elyas should have all the trinkets, but just my two cents that nobody ever asked for.and ultimately I just had to nerf the axe load from 100% so I could move on to other things.
added in at the end seeing the last two posts, I want to stress that there is a difference between making a rule, and posting your thought process. This thread is a GREAT way that you are letting us see your thought process, and see what your intentions behind certain smobs and cityheads are. I agree that making rules would be pointless, but these posts go a long way towards demonstrating what the intention behind things is, so that we can align our actions to follow suit, rather than constantly making tweaks to prevent something that *shouldn't* happen, when me and other smobbers are taking it as slight tweaks to make our strategies more difficult, but with a stamp of approval since it was looked at and nothing was said to us.
Re: Are players leaving?
ok one more idea
stop using trinks as a currency
make a quest item called a brass button that you need to trade for vials at the broker or that dfs need to turn in to x mob
all those other uses for trinks other then dodgers wearing them ....
and load that on smobs on %
that way trinks will be in less demand and the people who actually need this stuff wont have some much competition
As I mentioned, Gretchen, in the previous post, we are looking at smobbing.
mabey you should try talking to us about smobing instead
know how many times imss have said hey gret what do you think of x smob??
how are the loads on g chains looking from pkers point of view gret?
why are you hiting dfo 30 times a week?
Hey Draz get a group and go mess with salan for me i changed it around and let me know what u think whats the min number to do it now? we want it to be 6
none instead they assume we are over doing it and down the loads or make it harder
stop using trinks as a currency
make a quest item called a brass button that you need to trade for vials at the broker or that dfs need to turn in to x mob
all those other uses for trinks other then dodgers wearing them ....
and load that on smobs on %
that way trinks will be in less demand and the people who actually need this stuff wont have some much competition
As I mentioned, Gretchen, in the previous post, we are looking at smobbing.
mabey you should try talking to us about smobing instead
know how many times imss have said hey gret what do you think of x smob??
how are the loads on g chains looking from pkers point of view gret?
why are you hiting dfo 30 times a week?
Hey Draz get a group and go mess with salan for me i changed it around and let me know what u think whats the min number to do it now? we want it to be 6
none instead they assume we are over doing it and down the loads or make it harder
Re: Are players leaving?
Funny part is I’ve been doing it for years (or whenever he became an imm I can’t recall, a year?) and I think you’re the first one to catch me. Now I have to find another way to amuse myself
Re: Are players leaving?
Re: Are players leaving?
Re: Are players leaving?
First of all, A big thanks to the imms for posting an overview of clan bonuses. I could've sworn wisdom FCs are allowed to get more element levels than non-clanned (likewise dragonsworn), or does that not count?
In response to the Evial Braem Elias problem (likewise with city heads such as Falme's onyx shield on the dude in the mansion upstairs): They always load the tier 3 item (saw-tooth/finely/etc. or silver etched as in the examples)
Something along the lines of an oilskin bag, with options between the rare (40% or so) and the other options being stuff along the lines of a few easter egg pouches worth of vials/teas or dodge trinks, or some other mostly suitable yet lesser rewards.
Trying to think around the things in game that possibly don't need coding to implement (having very little idea on the semi-coded tools available to imms compounds this a bit... I promise that I'm trying to be helpful even if the end result isnt!).
The intent being you can't just look at the smob and then decide whether or not to bother or wait for repop and check again, but in a way that doesn't feel bad (i.e. the smob always has the rare, but it has a moderate %chance to make the rare disappear in a puff of smoke on death).
In response to the Evial Braem Elias problem (likewise with city heads such as Falme's onyx shield on the dude in the mansion upstairs): They always load the tier 3 item (saw-tooth/finely/etc. or silver etched as in the examples)
Something along the lines of an oilskin bag, with options between the rare (40% or so) and the other options being stuff along the lines of a few easter egg pouches worth of vials/teas or dodge trinks, or some other mostly suitable yet lesser rewards.
Trying to think around the things in game that possibly don't need coding to implement (having very little idea on the semi-coded tools available to imms compounds this a bit... I promise that I'm trying to be helpful even if the end result isnt!).
The intent being you can't just look at the smob and then decide whether or not to bother or wait for repop and check again, but in a way that doesn't feel bad (i.e. the smob always has the rare, but it has a moderate %chance to make the rare disappear in a puff of smoke on death).
Re: Are players leaving?
Wisdoms have clanned weaves, but they don't seem to be counting clanned weaves as a bonus (not noted for other clanned weave having clans). Master FC sworn used to have flamestrike as a bonus, I assume it's still there