This is a summation/cover of a workshop I've led a couple of times now. I've never posted it before and of course its all subjective. Please feel free to add. Please try not to derail. I considered leading another workshop and trying to post but honestly it always gets derailed and I'd like to get some core points down.
I typically teach this aimed at Accepted; however I'm going to try and break it down into topics and be open on each. Some o this won't seem survival oriented to which I say a good offense can be good defense.
Reading the room.
Zone knowledge and regroups.
Safe Flee rooms.
Running or not.
Mobility 101.
Preparedness.
Being actively engaged and aware during pk.
The importance of doing damage.
Reaction times and eating bashes.
How to win a fight using the one power.
Actively choosing risk.
Reading the room.
This one can be complex, however any decisions for when it gets complicated really should be being done by the leaders in pk.
Remember you can always advise your status, if you think you are going to win or lose, opponents status etc.
You can also ALWAYS make your own call that you are out; its better if you can advise it, but if you can't then go.
We can totally win a fight 5 vs 7, or even more skewed numbers if we have good pkers, or multiple channelers.
We will not win a fight 2 vs 7, or 6, and unlikely even 3 vs 7.
A general rule of thumb if they have more than double your numbers you are unlikely to win away from support.
If your leader is leading you scouting for the opponents and they're regrouped and more than double your number.
If your leader has left you solo while scouting and 7 walk in.
If you get separated from the group and run into opponents.
Change wimpy and flee.
If its just the two of you move to a room with safe Dlines and narrate a regroup (if your leader hasn't) or go to a regroup, and narrate.
If there are multiple pkers and your leader calls the pkers in zone to hit that room - great you can move 1 room and hit.
If its not double your number - ok maybe you can run that first bash.. but you've hit bash.. you want to have wimpy, flee typed out ready to hit enter the MOMENT your leader narrates out.
What I am trying to get across here is that we keep seeing people not flee in fights they will totally lose, and that leads to losses later.
If its a 5v7 fight, the leader calls out and everyone flees immediately to a regroup.. the group as a whole 'will' be in a better position than they were in that fight. Leaders don't really call out in fights they think the group as a whole will win.
If its a 5v7 fight and the leader calls out, and calls out again, and calls out again, and.. 2 people fled immediately, its now been a 3v7 fight for 1-5 rounds and the remaining players are either dead or low. Even when you get to the regroup you will be in a worse position than previous.
Any hesitation, getting beaten up solo going to the regroup, etc. all breaks down whatever chances you as a group had.
While strong pkers might choose to stay around a little longer to buy time for others, or maybe to land that last bash - if you aren't someone who is regularly beating 3-4 solo this isn't you. Please just flee instantly and regroup. You WILL get a better pk experience out of it.
Now if you have channies and are a basher, while your target is bashed you can narrate their hps and status.
This isn't necessarily a call to target that person - it is advice on their hps. If the channies choose to target them then great.
Likewise group leaders and you can call to change targets, but unless your channies are very good I'd suggest avoiding doing this too much.
In these situations I'm going to advise always moving to a room with a 'safe' flee if available, as pkers will always chase the individuals running from a fight, and while a 5v7 may have been winnable, 3v1 chasing you won't be. I'll be covering safe flees later. If there is an obvious regroup point you can get to without passing chokes I'd recommend moving there as also. And always narrating your status and position.
Zone knowledge and regroups
This builds on the above. If you don't know zones well enough to run effectively in them (and by that I mean outrun the best chasers in the game and break blocks). Please tell your leader. Its all knowledge they can work with.
At a minimum if pking North you should know Fal Dara, Dusty, Winding, Gap, Blight, Stedding, Orchard, DF, Blands, West Dusty and Dog zones. Preferably also SG, ruined keep, dark road, and Mountains.
Critical chokes and regroups in these zones include;
Dusty; 1n, 2n, 2n 2e, 2n 2w, and 4e (of Malkier), Burnt, 3n, 4w, 6w 1n and 6w 1n (of Burnt), fence, campsite, pittrap, cave (2w alls of Burnt),
Winding; NEON (alle n of 4e), commie, s and n ancients, s and n shivs, s choke, choke, brigands, CTF, nochan, split, and ASAW
Gap; scout, alls, MT, Kural, Bush, OTG, 1s OTG, Spike, PTG, Ragan, Cave (1up 1e ragan)
I would also recommend having an idea of flees that can successfully get you away from being trapped E or W of OTG, around spike, or behind doors in gap.
Blight; alln gap, goatish (technically 1e of blight), orchent, alls downer, e s orchent, 1n orchent, 2n orchent, 1s downer, downer, 2n downer, shoulder (2n 2e downer), culhook (1s 1e 1n downer), 1s and 1e culhook, neck (2n 2e n w downer), 2n neck, rock (2n w n 3e neck), elbow (2e rock), allw rock, allw elbow, path (3n of allw elbow), 3n elbow, 3s rk (allw gatekeep then 3s - I like to use 3s or 3s rk for this one and noone seems to consistently use anything better) and scout (allw of 3s rk)
SG waygate (wg), fence, oakdoor, irondoor
Dark Road caveslab, pit, blackslab, 2n oakdoor
Mountains; mire, ground, 1s mire, alls mire
Stedding; TS, 1n TS, 1n 1w TS, bench, back ent bench, Cave, fungus, forgotten trail - there are new rooms in Sted with a DS patrol but I don't know what its called yet, perhaps village?
Orchard; patty, 2n patty, deadroots, (2e n patty), xroads, ragan (4e xroads), well (2e 1n xroads), angel (1s 1e ragan), potato (1n 1e ragan), orchent (only called during Orch pk..1w orchent in bilght.. 2n e ragan), pond etc. Templedoor, Najdeer, oakdoor (I think?)
DF; Moldy, Df choke, allw Df choke, e 2n df choke, temple
Blands; camp ent, alle camp ent, ancients e n camp ent, Tower (2e camp ent), nochan (alle 2s w camp ent, may also get called as shivs), rocky (a general area), s rocky (the s ent to rocky alle s 3e camp ent), s ancients (2n e shady), 1n rolling, 1n 1w rolling, 1n shady, alln shady
West Dusty; shady, rolling, tree, grasses, ancients (two rooms), stream, stables, 2e shady
Sward; trees, sward, 2n stout, stoutdoor, fd fade, junction, fd smob, etc.
Dog; cave, tunnels backent, fridge, doggate, allw doggate, coach, s w doggate,
Ruined keep; Rotten, GK, rockpen, well, 1s smith, knomon, Dreadlord, pit, blarg, saddy, rent, (lots more)
Learning these rooms, and how to get to them safely, will make you a better pker. Couple this with reaction times.. If you are going ragan and there are blockings 1n of it, Its a N E S room, as an example if you flee dline e and stack n and w and if you flee s you'll go 1e of ragan, miss a command, and then back to ragan, if you flee e you'll miss your dline, then go 1n 1w, if you flee n..you'll dline e, then miss a command then stack back in w. Its not the best solution but its an example, that at this point you can run around via 1w ragan. Regardless you haven't hung around in the room where a bash is being rolled on you. If hit in this room (2n ragan) you could flee with a dline s, and stacked w s commands (if you choose to), a flee s will take you ragan, a flee w will waste your dline, then take you well, a flee e will take you potato, then through 1n ragan and s to ragan. There is potential here if a blocker is spamming and someone else is running a bash that you could get hit and instantly eat a bash but it takes a lot to build that up - if someone is spamming they're usually chasing you and if someone is rolling the bash they're not spamming.
Safe Flee Rooms
I'm going to couple this with double lining. You ever notice how some people fight numbers that you die against every time? and they survive and survive and survive? Part of it can be link, part of it can be being risk averse (it doesnt matter how good your link is if you stay in a room to run a bash vs multiple numbers there is a chance one of them will land on you), but most of it is reaction times, and choices.
As an example, 1n orchent is a lightside favoured choke, there are N E S exits and N is towards 'relative' safety.
A trolloc trying to run in blindly spamming North with the occasional west from gap might flee, reenter, flee, reenter, flee reenter.. at a 2/3 chance of fleeing s and e they can literally do this until they die from melee
Add to this someone in the room running a bash and it becomes a primary pk tactic; let your opponent suicide.
Add to this one or two fast chasers to keep the DS panicked and trying to run through that route.. and you start getting kills.
There is very little point in forcing that choke, you can go alln gap (a 1 exit room so you can 100% choose your dline), goatish (the same, with a support patrol!), through orchent, into caves, 1n 1e orchent, etc.
Now you can force the choke. People are just not very good at spamming, and a 1/3 chance on your flee to save running 40 rooms might be worth it. And if you are low flee lag, and have decent reaction times, you can TOTALLY, try run through, get agroed, flee, reenter, get agroed again.. and flee before a bash can possibly land (including if you fail a flee), so its totally viable. The one thing (that people do all the time) to not do is to flee, and keep spamming into the room at around the time a bash timer may be able to finish, or flee, and keep spamming into the room until your hps are all gone.
You could also wait 1e to be hit with a dline n (again making sure that you do NOT stay in that room to eat a bash if you flee s), you could hit trees 1s and flee with a dline to pass the block etc etc.
Now I've taught this a few times but let me run down doublelines theory here.
A doubleline occurs when you are in combat and have sufficient fleelag to enter a command after entering a flee, and before your flee has taken you out of the room - the command you entered will be processed before any others in the room you enter. (with the exception of ambush, and certain mob agro - I can only ever recall seeing it interrupted by mobs that engage with kick).
Ok let me break this down again. Fleeing and spamming commands isn't a dline unless you already have fleelag, and you are engaged in combat.
Any commands after the first is not a dline.
You can /literally/ break someones attempt at a dline by fleeing before they do when they use you for a dline
Example being human is at commie and there are lots of DS, human is fleelagged, you are not, you hit and start a bash..they start a flee.. if you flee instantly before them, they will NOT get a dline, and your spammers 1d will kill them.
Ok. So we've established that. Now. Lets look at surviving.
Lets choose the Dark Forest.
The dark forest is actually a pain to escape if there are multiple blocks set up, they can block 1e df choke, 1e 2n df choke, 1n 1w of that, Moldy, 2n moldy, temple.. etc
These are all 4 exit rooms that do not have 'safe dlines'
However almost all the sides of the zone are full of 'safe dlines'
A safe dline as I teach it is a dline that will work 100% regardless of which way you flee. It is not intrinsically safe.
From 1w 1n df choke, the exits are W and S, a dline of S, or W, will always take you one extra room away when you flee.
From Df choke, a dline of North will either take you w (N E S W exits), or e (N E W exits), and take you n, a dline of S with a stacked command e, will either take you 1w 1s df choke (and waste a command there) or 2e df choke (wasting the dline 1e df choke).
In this case the N dline will work 100% of the time, but if there are blocking e 2n df choke,.. its not actually safe.
Now when running through a zone like winding, almost all of the rooms except the chokes have safe dlines, use them.
If running and a blocker beat you to the choke, keep in mind what I said earlier about breaking blocks.. you can perhaps try and flee off one and break the block (flee, s, s.. ok now you've seen which way you fled.. was it s? w to safety, was it w or e? reenter, s,.. if its a solo blocker theyre likely still narrating on xxx and you'll walk past, if they hit you again flee again etc... do NOT be in that room 3 seconds after someone meleed you. Again, people suicide, you hit a choke, flee, reenter, someone else hits you..and the person running the bash lands and you die. Don't be that person. 3 seconds is a relatively long time game terms, if we consider people to have a minimum of 12 will you're going to be able to flee 4-5 times within that period if you react fast enough. Let it be an intrinsic reaction. You've spammed past choke..someone beat you there and engaged.. flee.
You don't need to waste time not forcing every block (and letting more blocks be set up and you eventually get pingponged, but you do need to work on a rhythm where you are never reentering a room when a bash can be landing.)
This falls under the banner of actively choosing risk, if the entire group is there, you probably dont want to force the block, you could then stand 1e or 1w, and wait for someone to hit you (or hit your horse, or a random mob), and flee dline past. You could move away to a room with safe dlines, until the group leaves the block to come find you. etc. etc. You can move away to somewhere with safe dlines, and narrate your status.
Finally, learn to distinguish if there are safe dlines or not. 2n malkier doesn't have a safe dline (arguably south is safe), 2n 1w malkier has a safe dline. Ah this is a bad example, Burnt doesnt really have safe dlines (again technically n). 1e burnt, 1w burnt, and 1n burnt, have 'safeish' dlines and stacked commands.
I think that also about wraps up running or not as well. Oh not quite.
If you're low and out of a group fight, choose a room with safe dlines to narrate your status.
If you're going in - go in. I've lost count of the amount of people who died because they stopped to narrate 2n, or on their way south,.. and its just not worth it to us as pkers for you to die doing something unsafe.
To anyone who wants to practice running, find a good basher or hunter, and just get them to hit u and bash, rinse repeat, while you look at your reaction times running and fleeing. I've tested this ad nauseum against FCs and almost without exception I win the first fight, either landing bashes before they even try to flee, or when they fail flees. Usually they 'panic' about 1/2 to 2/3 of the way through the bash timer. It takes about 15minutes of training and paying attention to hone your reaction times on this so that you're fleeing in the first 1/10 of a bash timer.. or more to the point so that you can choose when. if you flee after .2 seconds and they chase and hit you and rinse repeat.. you could build up to fleelag to not escape a bash very very fast. If you flee at 2.5 seconds, and at 2.5, and at 2.5, then at 2, 2, 2, thats already half a tic gone. A channie at least is going to regain that fleelag that she's built up on tic. With my link against a good channie I literally cannot chase them down hard enough solo for my bashes to finish before they can flee. In a real pk situation where you will be fleeing, dlining, and running at least 4-5 rooms to another room with safe dline? congratulations, you are now unkillable. Now kill them.
Mobility 101
Please carry vials; minimum one, I suggest two, ask your teamamtes for vials if you don't have.
If pking North I highly suggest having cure poison cups, or for FCs at least 70% in the weave (4 pracs)
FCs please have refresh.
FCs please if you possibly can have eqd horses - their max moves are increased and refresh is more effective.
It is the most powerful weave you have.
Please practice refresh riding; if you are chasing DS with a leader who knows it, you can outrun any trolloc, and almost all fades.
Please practice refresh riding for running; you want an idea of your horses moves, and to practice skills of either walking over your own tracks (back track a room and then off main path), or refreshing enough off the beaten path and moving fast enough that you don't get hit before the weave finishes.
Please use your voice, if a leader is running you hagg and the opponents will crush you, ask to regroup, say you need a tic for moves, etc etc.
Non channies please if you possibly can have eqd horses, and if you can't and are pking north, ride warhorses.
Any time someone rides a non warhorse into pk thats going to limit the groups movement, its going to get you left behind, its going to prevent people chasing. You might be able to justify it when running to a fight knowing there are other stacked horses, otherwise.. literally say you need to get a decent horse. or buy one and ride it to a stacked horse. ride that to the battle and then run back and get the warhorse.
If running from a fight and there are GOOD pkers on the other side; only stop if safe to do so;
A room with 'safe' dlines can be a good option to check if you are regrouping near or far.
Generally speaking your horse regens I think 12-15 rooms per tic, so running at least that far is pretty reasonable and should give you breathing space (someone chasing you for a fast kill is going to chase 1, 2, even 3 rooms.. if you're already past that they're either committing to not coming back to the fight so they can kill you, or they go back to the fight).
Preparedness
Ok I can't say this one enough; with the exception of DS not in FD and someone urgently calling for healing, or only one to two DS in FD and multiple humans - there is no point to entering FD naked unless you have a weapon stored there (weapon, dress, and ring for accepted), or someone has your eq. I've seen multiple instances of multiple people logging and going FD recently and dying..without so much as saying they were in trouble. I love ballsy stupid pk. Pull a weapon from rent or tell us where you are and use mobs and maybe it will be something other than suicide.
I really recommend having a couple of vials, a cure poison, cure blind, and cure fear, as well as enough cash to buy horses, for anyone who is planning to pk (or thinks they will be attacked, which is everyone).
Being actively engaged and aware in pk
Ok so I'll give you some anecdotes from my perspective;
Being a rogue fighting a basher, flee, reenter, start a stab - if they miss a bash and the rogue land thats almost a guaranteed kill.
Being a rogue fighting a channie, flee, reenter, start a stab - this gets beyond me but I have seen so many FCs, who know the rogues are fleestabbing, literally stand there and die. If you are an fc and people are fleestabbing, engage before 3 seconds is up of being unengaged, or leave the room. By all means you can finish your weave, but finish your weave and if whoever you are engaged on flees be spamming hard or spamming hard to get out (or hit flee - since you should be wimpy anyway).
If the leader narrates out - you shouldn't be watching your timers, you shouldn't be watching your typing, you should be watching comms and if you are engaged or not, flee. Thats it. just flee. Almost every fight I am seeing that LS loses right now is due to the combatants not fleeing when called. The first examples in this post are for you to make your own decision to read the room and flee instantly for a battle that wont be won. This is for if the leader narrates it isn't an excuse to miss the narrate. Every moment you delay other people are likely waiting for you to flee to ensure your safety (or they've fled and you are getting closer to having a bash land and die).
Now the leader fleeing isn't necessarily an out call. Maybe they are reengaging, maybe they are checking that there isnt a DL a room away, whatever, but the narrate of out, get out, please, instantly, FCs you should already be wimpy, everyone else, ch mood wimpy, flee.
If someone has narrated a dlord is in the pk, learn the names, fcs should be short weaving unless they specifically choose to do something else, and people who are low should be ensuring theyre not at hps to die solo or in a single bash.
If you enter a room (with notice on) and see a hidden, and the person you engage on flees,..already be spamming out of the room (or spamming k h.dark).. landing that weave doesn't matter a dung against not eating the stab that is running on you.
Leaders aren't all great, and aren't necessarily great at calling regroups. If they haven't called a regroup and there is an obvious regroup. Call it and go there. If they call a different one, advise, and see if you can get there, and advise again.
The Importance of doing Damage
This one is mostly for fcs, but also random rogues and fleebies. Do some damage. I don't care if its spread or burst. But do some damage. We had pk yesterday where a group with 3 fcs got hit by DS who had multiple beat members.. and the fcs were changing targets and not actually weaving. Not a single opponent died. By all means make an alias to weave the target, but if theyre not in the room weave another target. If every fc in the room weaves h.dark - that DS is gonna get a pummeling and be out of the fight not fighting every fc in the room.
If every fc in the room targets a basher - that basher is going to take a pummeling.
You have 3 seconds for your long timers to complete, have simple aliases or triggers, if you are weaving one person and you see Jaster eat spikes, you type jaster and hit enter as soon as your spikes finish.. and in 3 seconds he's gonna be upset.
Also don't be afraid of using short weaves. If you're being hit in a fight and you're high sps and there are multiple channies, getting that damage out of 35-45 dmg with a flamestrike before someone leaves the damned room has value, it also makes them MORE likely to stay in because they think people aren't long weaving (so land your fs..and be ready to switch to fireball!)
For others, if your leader is actively chasing, SPAM, it doesnt matter a dung if you hit them and lose 1-2 commands in overspam but again and again the opponent get away because the leader catches them..and noone engages. Be brave. If the leader runs the 2 of you into 7 you have 3 seconds to change mood wimpy, and flee, do that. If you get separated from your leader and opponents are low, either choose a block and SPAM, or call where to meet (and spam while you're waiting for a response). Literally in terms of pure dpm from engaging almost all the engagements I've been in in recent months should have had multiple opponents dead /just/ from being meleed while running.
On the flip side its been the main thing that has caused my deaths.
Reaction Times and Eating Bashes
I've already covered this.
The only thing its excused for is sneak bashes from fades, and unengaged bashes (preferably having snuck in).
In a fight that you are not going to win; don't eat a bash. Unless you're baiting. Otherwise you're fish bait.
How to win a fight using the one power
Ok this is a specific class I teach a lot.
I'm not going into details - but if you are actively engaged and enter a room, k dark, ice h.xxx - that ice spikes is going to land before their bash (or PONR)
If you eat a bash in a group fight, you have SIX seconds to type ice xxx on whoever you want,.. and you are going to land that ice spikes before the next bash lands (or PONR)
Ditto for fireball.
Now I mentioned earlier spread vs burst damage.
These are concepts where its not always the best option to unload damage at just one target.
If Dukug is fighting with 7 vs 6 and you have 3 fcs.. if you put 2 fireballs into Dukug he is going to leave that pk and take his group with him.
If Dukug is fighting with 7 vs 6, and eats 1 fireball, and sees two others eat a flame strike each, he might stick around, he sees 3 more flame strikes spread.. still sticks around.. he eats a bash and 5 fireballs (lets assume one fc got bashed) and dies.
Work with each other, learn to choose targets, learn to manage your sps, control the weather, and kill the opponents. (not win the fight, you can win 10x without killing any, kill the opponents.)
Any pk with multiple fcs who can work together you now clean up. Anyone who hits beat is down for an instant rip, and has to react accordingly. Thats smoething you, and your leader, can use. Entering and you both weave the separate healthy target rather than the beaten troll..not so much.
Actively choosing risk
Lets be blunt. While there is some fun in trammeling the opponents and winning every god damned fight - eventually the opponents will stop coming out and fighting. pking with a back and forth with risk, is WAY more fun, and also means your opponents are more likely to take risks.
This is the reason you see so many good pkers taking damage and risking stuff all of the time; If Castien is running around healthy destroying solo trollocs and not taking risks they won't fight..if he's even wounded.. well now.
So thats one example.
Staying at kajin vs numbers is another.
Choosing to flee when they enter and engage you because a dlord is rolling a fball is another
Running a hurricane in pk is a chosen risk. Running it vs multiple masters when you're in a dung kit is asking to fail. Starting it /after/ they enter the room is asking to fail. Having a hurricane timer 3/4 finished and a group walks in? *waves into the distance*
Ditto for quakes vs DLs when you are low. You're running but your opponents are low.. don't wait for them to enter the room to run your quake..have quakes running and cancel them halfway through - someone enters the room bang, quake.. and you have plenty of time to flee before a bash.
Trying to kill an opponent as a channie when you're beat and they're batt and have 5 people breaking your defence is one thing.
Doing that dism and wvd is another
Running and splitting the group and doing it to less people is another
Doing it with your wimpy set to 1 under max is another
Trying to kill the same opponent as a channie when you're beat and they're batt and solo is another, and can be improved in the same ways.
Staying in pk vs horse bashers with DLs is another risk, a known one.
An assumption of risk. PK discussion and class.
Re: An assumption of risk. PK discussion and class.
Well thought out, helpful and concise. I can think of some newer remorts like Zatuchly who would do well to commit this to memory.
Re: An assumption of risk. PK discussion and class.
This is extremely helpful and I’ll be digging through it to improve my skills. Thanks Draz!
Re: An assumption of risk. PK discussion and class.
did you mean to title this "assessment of risk"?
Re: An assumption of risk. PK discussion and class.
I would assume not. see below:
I would say not. Need to risk it for the biscuit!Draz wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 12:06 am
Actively choosing risk
Lets be blunt. While there is some fun in trammeling the opponents and winning every god damned fight - eventually the opponents will stop coming out and fighting. pking with a back and forth with risk, is WAY more fun, and also means your opponents are more likely to take risks.
This is the reason you see so many good pkers taking damage and risking stuff all of the time; If Castien is running around healthy destroying solo trollocs and not taking risks they won't fight..if he's even wounded.. well now.
Re: An assumption of risk. PK discussion and class.
I thought this forum was for logs. That was way too many words for something not a log.
Re: An assumption of risk. PK discussion and class.
great post
" We will not win a fight 2 vs 7, or 6, and unlikely even 3 vs 7 "
speak for your self ill win on my own!
A channie at least is going to regain that fleelag that she's built up on tic. With my link against a good channie I literally cannot chase them down hard enough solo for my bashes to finish before they can flee. In a real pk situation where you will be fleeing, dlining, and running at least 4-5 rooms to another room with safe dline? congratulations, you are now unkillable. Now kill them.
this is a major bit of advice ^^^^ you dont need to run far
" We will not win a fight 2 vs 7, or 6, and unlikely even 3 vs 7 "
speak for your self ill win on my own!
A channie at least is going to regain that fleelag that she's built up on tic. With my link against a good channie I literally cannot chase them down hard enough solo for my bashes to finish before they can flee. In a real pk situation where you will be fleeing, dlining, and running at least 4-5 rooms to another room with safe dline? congratulations, you are now unkillable. Now kill them.
this is a major bit of advice ^^^^ you dont need to run far