Change to Master Damage

[Reyne]

I'm super glad that master mobs and master damage were downed. There's too much handholding for oldbies. It's such an ass-backwards system - Oh you've played for 10+ years and have masters and fades and gaidin? Lets make the game even easier for you! Oh you're new? Well in addition to not knowing how to play everyone you're playing against is going to have free bonuses, some of which are super OP and unless you play for 5+ more years you're incredibly unlikely to get them!

Good game design would involve masters & remorts getting new & interesting alternate playstyles that still have a similar power level to new players. Any 'OP' potential could be gated by a high skill-ceiling on that alternate playstyle to enable some sick moves if you play really well.

There have certainly been some higher skill tactics enabled by master & remort abilities, but in general they always have a strict bonus to them so that they just make the game easier for low-skill and high-skill players alike.

I'm not against the principle of having some ultra powerful characters in a wheel of time game - asymmetrical multiplayer game mechanics are super interesting and it certainly makes it extra special to take down a Lykan, but it gets way out of whack when all the wholist in PK are remorts and masters. IMO asymmetrically powerful player characters should be rare enough that they aren't deciding the flow of literally every group PK session.

+1

Sucks to lose stuff you (and I) had, but yeah. It was too asymmetric for newer players. The slow drip of extra damage as you rank up gives some nice reward rank to rank and adds a better sense of progression.

I realize it would be a lot of changes to make but I've always leaned more towards giving RP bonuses and aesthetic rewards instead of straight PK bonuses.

Or if it is a PK thing, alternatives vs just damage bonuses (as you mentioned). Maybe r7 fades should have group fade

[Rhahr]

Would rather they did away with all the rank based bonuses for fades so we could stay in our clans after we remorted, I think that was the issue back when they tried it out, everyone had r7+ fade timer/reach, would be neat if they just capped it at what rank 3 or 4 is now - or even what rank 1 is - and kept us in our respective clans. Or maybe if it could be made a flag a kin to Chosen, so you'd still be a Dha'vol Myrddraal or whatever clan you came from, would also help identify the second class fades that came from Ko'bal like Erulak and Rig so you know which fades actually put in some work and who played on easy mode.
Would incidentally also "fix" what some of the other remorts have been annoyed about with regards to master damage.

[Rig]

Third rate Dreadlord who grew a penis throwing shade at his superiors. The shamelessness of DS these days smdh.

[Rhahr]

eh you're not a dreadlord anymore, you better get to shining my boots.

[Thore]

Was likely removed for a reason, don't think revisiting old "flawed" bonuses is the way forward, would be nice with some reworking of current "end game", always liked Raz's suggestions at least in so far as spreading bonuses out to cater to whatever playstyle you prefer, so we don't end up with fades who are supposed to lead, but can barely do that since they came from ko'bal and they like the sneaky stabby stabby playstyle or ghars who actually just want to play as a trolloc, but fading is just the natural thing to do. That being said, it is probably a huge task to start thinking about a whole revamping, and then having to rebalance it all afterwards.
But I don't see group fading coming back being a positive. The argument of "there's only a few who can do it" is what got us here in the first place, where many of the old players who stuck around all have remorts, some of us both DL and a fade and whatever other bonused characters, just by the fact that we've been playing for a long time.

Kind of disagree with this idea. In the books fades are supposed to be leaders. If Kobal fades are an issue, don't let Kobals fade. Wasn't just a thing for a while? Or isn't it a thing? They can't fade or they can't dreadlord? Or if you have a heart, do let all trolls feed, and then take some time to teach them and don't be an ass if they fail. Because they will. Then everyone wins because we have better leaders. And hopefully they swap back to light side because freaking a light side has zero leaders.

Gasp, the only hard part of this formula is that existing fades have to teach newbies. Yikes that's not going to happen. So maybe we do revert back to your guys's ideas.

[Thore]

Was likely removed for a reason, don't think revisiting old "flawed" bonuses is the way forward, would be nice with some reworking of current "end game", always liked Raz's suggestions at least in so far as spreading bonuses out to cater to whatever playstyle you prefer, so we don't end up with fades who are supposed to lead, but can barely do that since they came from ko'bal and they like the sneaky stabby stabby playstyle or ghars who actually just want to play as a trolloc, but fading is just the natural thing to do. That being said, it is probably a huge task to start thinking about a whole revamping, and then having to rebalance it all afterwards.
But I don't see group fading coming back being a positive. The argument of "there's only a few who can do it" is what got us here in the first place, where many of the old players who stuck around all have remorts, some of us both DL and a fade and whatever other bonused characters, just by the fact that we've been playing for a long time.

I would like to know the reason for removal. I don't think saying "it was likely removed for a reason" is a valid response. It's a cop out. Isn't it possible that the reason for removal does not exist anymore? I assume it had something to do with dwindling player numbers, back when there were like 10 people in all playing. Or maybe it was the old WoTMUD trope of something being complained about enough so that it was removed, changed, or otherwise nerfed. I would like to know how gate avoided removal when it's end result is the same thing: moving large numbers of PCs around the map quickly and without tracks.

I will agree with you about Razhak's ideas. I like his ideas. It would give an option to people who don't want to be leaders, and instead would prefer an additional bonus that complements their playstyle. Not everyone is meant to be a leader, and funneling them towards becoming a fade "because that's what you do" as the typical progression towards end game for a character is not the best idea. It's how things ended up the way they are now.

Just going down this one by one by the way. I'm trying to speak objectively from my opinion. I don't like the idea. I think we could easily bring back group fade, and then if we had the ability to, take it away from the players that make it no fun. The players that are smobbing players. Not the players that are fading to promote good player killing. Smobing players ruins the game. Good player killing promotes the game. Group fade thus should promote the game. If good players are using it for good.

[Thore]

Wasn't around when groupfade was a thing, but I imagine the random full group fading in on smobbers then fading out was the main reason and having a side where a large number can "gate" doesn't seem too productive, could be it is more balanced now that no quit makes it harder, but since failing fades doesn't cost DPs it doesn't really answer it. In any case DLs can prac gate, so its not like the side can't have it, fades don't have to be copies of channelers, we have Dreadies for that. I know Mikhan and maybe Xafelar were dicking around with gate at some point, personally I've always stayed away from it.

Tada. I think that's probably the reason. It's the bad players using a good perk in a bad way. Same with anything in this world. Anyone can take something good and twist it for bad.

[Thore]

Try not to think of remorts as a step upwards but more of a "reset progression but now on a far better character". You go from being a master troll to a completely new remort. Your rank is reset at 1 but the character is better overall. You can work your now rank 1 character back up to rank 4 with a little effort and suddenly you are only literally 1 damage less than master. And you're a freeking dreadlord so lmfao if that 1 damage matters at all.

Also yeah thats why I rarely play my FC - it takes up too much space in pk. Is very fun and very strong but unless we're outnumbered or against dreadlords it just kills pk.

I get what you’re saying and it’s a very small thing, but a character should never move backwards as reward for time and work put in. This isn’t call of duty where you prestige and basically start over. Also, a dreadlord should be on par with a master sedai damage wise. I mean a dreadlord is already basically a glorified accepted without rules and a few more spells.

I agree, I just dont think going from a (for example) 19 11 9 18 19 troll with 4 bonus damage per hit - to an uber statted channeler with bonus sp and mc pracs that can issue the highest db shirt in the game among other bonuses is really a step back. It's not getting r8 on a troll where you get 1 more damage and are the same thing, it's becoming something completely new and far far far stronger, but starting at the bottom of that ladder.

Lol seriously take away Master damage and then make all dreadlords deal 0d0 damage via their weapons and they are still overpowered. Anyone who's complaining probably hasn't A) played a channeler seriously and B) actually just a.

[Thore]

Wasn't around when groupfade was a thing, but I imagine the random full group fading in on smobbers then fading out was the main reason and having a side where a large number can "gate" doesn't seem too productive, could be it is more balanced now that no quit makes it harder, but since failing fades doesn't cost DPs it doesn't really answer it. In any case DLs can prac gate, so its not like the side can't have it, fades don't have to be copies of channelers, we have Dreadies for that. I know Mikhan and maybe Xafelar were dicking around with gate at some point, personally I've always stayed away from it.

You don't know I dreadlords quit? Have you played a channel or before? They quit because it's OP, it's boring. Jestin likely still pops on because he enjoys it, has fun, and doesn't necessarily make it OP. He dies sometimes. The earthquake log recently is a perfect example of how OP it is. And I don't think Jestin felt very good doing that. Other than to maybe prove a point. Point being that DL is OP and earthquake combined with DL is even more OP.
Ah yes the non-existent (except for Mikhan sometimes!) dreadlord. I wonder why dreadlords don't play their characters. I know Jestin pops on sometimes, too. I think that would be a good argument if dreadlords played regularly. Plenty of Aes Sedai play.

As for failing fade costing dp...I am not sure how that will really balance it. As I already pointed out, if you succeed both fades, you could fade a full group MAYBE twice before running out of dp. It is much more likely you will have to wait for a tick or two to fade a full group twice. I know that would be the case on my fade. Maybe tie in the skill percentage and the number of PCs following into how often it will fail? More PC followers, higher chance to fail, unless you have closer to 99%?

That also leaves you without any dp. You'll have to sit in the dark for some time if you want to regenerate those dp. What this means, essentially, is that the fade will not be able to do any of his skills. No sneaking on horse, no compel, no darken, no fading the group out of danger, and no fear. None of these skills will be helpful until the fade has enough dp again. Probably irrelevant for a quick smash and dash on a smob. Gate, you typically have a group with multiple channelers, and that is why it is so lethal. I will admit, from my perspective and experience, gate is typically used more for smobbing than PK.

In the end it doesn't really matter. With the number of fades it is typically easy to get 2-3 fades to each fade a person down somewhere and smash whoever. It's often easy enough for someone to grab a PC and a mob and ruin someone's day. So yeah, it doesn't matter.

I still want to know why all the dreadlords quit, though.

[Thore]

Wasn't around when groupfade was a thing, but I imagine the random full group fading in on smobbers then fading out was the main reason and having a side where a large number can "gate" doesn't seem too productive, could be it is more balanced now that no quit makes it harder, but since failing fades doesn't cost DPs it doesn't really answer it. In any case DLs can prac gate, so its not like the side can't have it, fades don't have to be copies of channelers, we have Dreadies for that. I know Mikhan and maybe Xafelar were dicking around with gate at some point, personally I've always stayed away from it.

Ah yes the non-existent (except for Mikhan sometimes!) dreadlord. I wonder why dreadlords don't play their characters. I know Jestin pops on sometimes, too. I think that would be a good argument if dreadlords played regularly. Plenty of Aes Sedai play.

As for failing fade costing dp...I am not sure how that will really balance it. As I already pointed out, if you succeed both fades, you could fade a full group MAYBE twice before running out of dp. It is much more likely you will have to wait for a tick or two to fade a full group twice. I know that would be the case on my fade. Maybe tie in the skill percentage and the number of PCs following into how often it will fail? More PC followers, higher chance to fail, unless you have closer to 99%?

That also leaves you without any dp. You'll have to sit in the dark for some time if you want to regenerate those dp. What this means, essentially, is that the fade will not be able to do any of his skills. No sneaking on horse, no compel, no darken, no fading the group out of danger, and no fear. None of these skills will be helpful until the fade has enough dp again. Probably irrelevant for a quick smash and dash on a smob. Gate, you typically have a group with multiple channelers, and that is why it is so lethal. I will admit, from my perspective and experience, gate is typically used more for smobbing than PK.

In the end it doesn't really matter. With the number of fades it is typically easy to get 2-3 fades to each fade a person down somewhere and smash whoever. It's often easy enough for someone to grab a PC and a mob and ruin someone's day. So yeah, it doesn't matter.

I still want to know why all the dreadlords quit, though.

I've just been playing other characters than Bryan, who was my main for many years, because 1.) there are fewer LS PKers around when I am right now, so I tend to play LS over DS, and 2.) on DS I was working on (finally) fading Riurk.

But, I think there are two reasons you don't see more dreadlords playing actively, broadly speaking:

1.) A lot of trollocs who went dreadlord via the trolloc->dreadlord route were not really serious channie players as their main, which is why they don't stick around. The exceptions are really just Jestin and Mangler, and even Mangler started as a fade. A channeler is just a very different class and playstyle. Removing the trolloc->dreadlord remort path was a good change both because that path made Darkfriends pointless and also because you tended to end up with dreadlords who don't actually play channelers or really enjoy it more than other classes. So it ends up as a trophy character, and that is even explicitly the goal in some cases.

2.) If you have both a fade and a dreadlord (a lot of the newer dreadlords fall into this category), the fade is the easier character to lead on and is also more mobile w/fade and compel. So unless there are a bunch of channelers rampaging through the Blight, the fade is usually easier to run around on.

I think you can like channelers and probably enjoy a dreadlord. I think you can like being OP and probably enjoy a dreadlord. I think you can like trophy characters, and get one, and then not play it. I don't think the three always go hand in hand. I like channelers. I don't care about being OP, I never have been even close. I don't mind trophy characters, but I would rather play them than shove them. I have a couple. I try to play them. I also don't like dark side for various reasons so I don't really want to think about going the dark friend route just to get a dreadlord. Although if it were easier, and I had more time, I probably would do it. Because then I could ignore the reasons why I don't like playing dark side. Actually now that I'm thinking about it, maybe I should try it on a character, because I could enjoy the side I enjoy and then immediately, after a bunch of years, switch into a position where I can ignore what I don't like about dark side.