Lightside Needs Help

[Elysia]

Some people feel the game needs to be shrunk. Getting Far Madding to move out of the way of Tear Road was a -huge- achievement. Shrinking to the extent some players want it, I really doubt that's going to happen. Might as well stop asking about it.

I just want to weep when I hear from above that clear positive change is out of the question, while negative change isn't. The new Chachin zone was the final nail in the coffin for west PK, for instance, (believe it or not, there were still dribbles of PK out there before that zone was imped) and not even a wonderful change like removing the Ashen-Woodlands connection was enough to breathe any life into it. If it doesn't happen sooner, there may not be any later.

Did you read the "to the extent some players want it" part?

Because some people advocate the removal of whole regions, like everything west of EF. Others want us to use a fine tooth comb to remove rooms from heaps of individual zones. The former wouldn't do justice to the builders and wreak havoc on the SS and two other clans (in this example) and wreck existing quests, which would then have to be re-written and/or have their loads/phrasing adjusted. There is more to it than just cutting off room connections (and a large amount of work flagging the areas in question no-locate, no travel and so on. If anyone remembers when we did that with Seanchan, it took multiple imms multiple days, just saying.).

The fine tooth comb method is also a lot of work and if it were done to the extent some players would want it, Tear and Illian Roads would be halved in length. Aside from making sure unique (quest) mobs and items still have a place in the zone, also requires taking a mobol inventory to make sure other things aren't deleted or made inaccessible when a room is cut off from the accessible part of a zone. And that's not counting the background stuff like making ingame maps for immortal reference (which is a fairly anger inducing activity, ask anyone).

Both would require serious bureaucratic hoop jumping, with some imms historically having spoken out against such large scale changes.

Change a few room connections here and there, sure, that could potentially be doable. But -to the extent that some players want it-, ugh. I'm just being realistic when I say the game's landscape is largely going to stay the same, as much as I have a wish list for zone modifications.

P.s. Rig, if you got 3 levels in 7 hours, you're doing something wrong.

[varcoz]

We always hear stuff that can't be done. So what can be done? LS needs something to happen in pk...or maybe DS just needs downed. Like removing all the hand held bs fades get lol. Joke as fk that they give all that to the best players. But whatevs beating a dead horse. PK bonuses for the winz right?

As much as I would hate it, because I do love SS. I enjoy the challenge of being the only person on. Against everyone else, with small mob support around the world. It's always been laughable to me when people complain about SS lol. Go have fun with our 1 patty that's in a dying area. VS multiple opponents constantly showing up when your low. It's dead as fk over here. Assimilate us into LS, close the side down. This game can't support 3 sides. Not sure it would do much. Would add masters and more chars to LS. I dunno honestly what the answer is. Something needs done though. This game seems geared toward DS to me. LS needs love.

[Rig]

P.s. Rig, if you got 3 levels in 7 hours, you're doing something wrong.

Was actually doing pines, but went from 32? to 36. Was terrible. And was more around 5 hours. And I dont know ls exp anymore, forgot all the doors to preds and such. HALP WITH LS EXP PLS. I NEED INFO

[Rig]

We always hear stuff that can't be done. So what can be done? LS needs something to happen in pk...or maybe DS just needs downed. Like removing all the hand held bs fades get lol. Joke as fk that they give all that to the best players. But whatevs beating a dead horse. PK bonuses for the winz right?

As much as I would hate it, because I do love SS. I enjoy the challenge of being the only person on. Against everyone else, with small mob support around the world. It's always been laughable to me when people complain about SS lol. Go have fun with our 1 patty that's in a dying area. VS multiple opponents constantly showing up when your low. It's dead as fk over here. Assimilate us into LS, close the side down. This game can't support 3 sides. Not sure it would do much. Would add masters and more chars to LS. I dunno honestly what the answer is. Something needs done though. This game seems geared toward DS to me. LS needs love.

Fades are easy to kill. Just takes patience and planning. Fear vials and poison cups for a red robe people! Zerk bait fades is easiest way to kill them. Is funny when they die zerk!

And as before stated, fear vials and poison cups are so easy to get a hold of.

[Rark]

Would be nice to see some more predators/lizards spine, might make it attractive for humans to go there again=spine pk.

[krul]

Did you read the "to the extent some players want it" part?

Because some people advocate the removal of whole regions, like everything west of EF. Others want us to use a fine tooth comb to remove rooms from heaps of individual zones. The former wouldn't do justice to the builders and wreak havoc on the SS and two other clans (in this example) and wreck existing quests, which would then have to be re-written and/or have their loads/phrasing adjusted. There is more to it than just cutting off room connections (and a large amount of work flagging the areas in question no-locate, no travel and so on. If anyone remembers when we did that with Seanchan, it took multiple imms multiple days, just saying.).

The fine tooth comb method is also a lot of work and if it were done to the extent some players would want it, Tear and Illian Roads would be halved in length. Aside from making sure unique (quest) mobs and items still have a place in the zone, also requires taking a mobol inventory to make sure other things aren't deleted or made inaccessible when a room is cut off from the accessible part of a zone. And that's not counting the background stuff like making ingame maps for immortal reference (which is a fairly anger inducing activity, ask anyone).

Both would require serious bureaucratic hoop jumping, with some imms historically having spoken out against such large scale changes.

Change a few room connections here and there, sure, that could potentially be doable. But -to the extent that some players want it-, ugh. I'm just being realistic when I say the game's landscape is largely going to stay the same, as much as I have a wish list for zone modifications.

Yeah I did read that part, and I guess I'd be assuming a player consensus (which, now that I think about it, when was there ever any consensus among the players..), specifically about PK zones. When Chachin was changed (sorry to keep picking on it!), neither Dhai nor Sal Cav was consulted about the effect it might have on PK. As soon as we found out and took a look at it we all knew it was going to discourage PK. The players had asked for things to be removed from around there for years, and after everything what happened was the opposite of that, and we all gave up. So when I say consensus, that's what I'm thinking about.

Arkan and I may have different ideas about what should change there specifically (I would say that after the Ashen fix the only serious problems are Chachin, which could be moved away from PK to north of Legion base, and the lack of horseloads to get from FD to Ashen and then stay there), and that'll probably reflect our playstyle differences, but what we both easily agree on is that the zones are bloated. Once that simple consensus is there you have the opportunity for positive change.

Am completely sympathetic to the work involved in zones from the building I've done on a separate MUD (although I didn't face any bureaucratic issues there because it was only me and two other builders and we fed off each other in a great way), which is probably why I'm so elated by the Ashen fix. Such a small change, and yet it does so much. Can't really identify with people not wanting their work to be kept up to date since all I want is for people to have fun in my zones, but am a little less possessive than most, I guess.

I'm sorry if any of this or my previous post seems really blame-y, I don't mean it like that at all and obviously assigning blame is a worthless exercise. And it isn't as though these things are only up to the imms. If people were more able to highlight the things they agreed on, rather than focusing on what they didn't, it'd sure reduce the labor for you guys. For what it's worth, I tried to organize Sal Cav and Dhai in reaching a set of changes to put forward to zoning admin as a kind of joint proposal thing, but I didn't try very hard and I failed.. mainly I gave up because no one seemed willing to compromise on their opinions, and they all had very specific opinions. Makes me think the playerbase probably shouldn't be involved except in pointing out that a problem exists and later in giving feedback, just to avoid all that noise.

Maybe I should go further and say that if the zone sees a significant reduction in PK activity, *and* there's player consensus (the mythical unicorn), then something should be done. I'm not sure why people would want Tear and Illian Roads shortened, they're quite easy to horse hop, but Illian Road, coming from Tear.. it used to be good for exp, now there's just nothing there except a Waygate and a clan base, both of which are more Tear than Illian Road, and the only thing the road to Illian does is ensure that no one ever goes to Illian but then, to follow the same example, Tear-Illian Road was never a PK zone, as far as I'm aware, so I wouldn't see the point in shortening it, since tightening up zones is really only a PK-oriented change. At least in my mind??

[Elysia]

When Chachin was changed (sorry to keep picking on it!), neither Dhai nor Sal Cav was consulted about the effect it might have on PK. As soon as we found out and took a look at it we all knew it was going to discourage PK. The players had asked for things to be removed from around there for years, and after everything what happened was the opposite of that, and we all gave up. So when I say consensus, that's what I'm thinking about.

I've been trying to solicit player feedback oretty frequently. Soon, I'll be asking for feedback on the weapons changes, as it will have been 6 months since they were done - ample time to try a bunch of them.

Asking a group of players beforehand... too many differing views, not to mention a lack of understanding of imm (building) rules and what actually works/can be done would lead to endless imm explanations muddying the waters. I've been a part of some of that, it's not enjoyable, in part because people don't read everything and one ends up repeating oneself to say the same thing. In the end, a bunch of players will still feel "imms didn't listen". Then I prefer feedback after the fact, because there's always a few people who post they feel things are ok, who think only a small thing needs adjusting, which leads to considerably less input to wade through and the input often being more practical and to the point, like "remove the connection east from this room, so it becomes more chokey".

[krul]

Yeah I guess that's why I feel like everything should be kept super general when soliciting players for opinions beforehand. Do you like the idea of X in Y location(s), yes/no? If you get majority yes, you'll feel happy about going ahead and doing your thing and then later asking for feedback on whatever it was that is imped. Sometimes you just poll a few players (my old boss used to do this habitually, can't recommend it enough). In my experience most players know more or less whether a zone is good or bad, but that doesn't always translate into knowing precisely what about the zone is good and bad, i.e., how to fix it. Oftentimes changing one room will affect an entire zone, or an adjacent zone, and that isn't always clear. Like I was having trouble balancing one zone in particular, and I couldn't figure out what was wrong with it for the longest time, until it hit me that I should put a door on one of the exits in a specific room, and that alone completely fixed it. It's bizarre. Other times I just couldn't figure it out, and had to leave it up to trial and error.

[Arkan]

I have to say, the new patty in Krul's least favorite part of Kandor might not be popular Esp since zones were changed supposedly to encourage pk. From my perspective, the #1 problem is simply the moves it takes to go from SH to maradon. I would never go pk there without 1 vial, which is probably 1 fewer than I need. That's why I just want the zones a tad shorter. The zone design is generally good. There are loops, chokes, chasing patties, doors. Just too big and I wouldn't fight in chachin unless I had the numbers.

[krul]

From my perspective, the #1 problem is simply the moves it takes to go from SH to maradon. I would never go pk there without 1 vial, which is probably 1 fewer than I need. That's why I just want the zones a tad shorter. The zone design is generally good. There are loops, chokes, chasing patties, doors. Just too big and I wouldn't fight in chachin unless I had the numbers.

Blighted Pass is also my favorite zone on the MUD after Stedding

Chachin only makes sense for RP. We already had stocks, which were perfect and had no weird LS-only mobol gate. With stocks in place troll mvs weren't a huge issue, people very very rarely actually retreated to Maradon, sometimes you'd get PK around hut but more often than not it'd stick around Ashen and ridge. No one ever went fort. Kscouts and valley mobs were always sufficient with low number PK, if LS were in trouble they'd retreat to stocks (and risk getting trapped there), if DS was in trouble they'd retreat to hill (and risk getting trapped there) or to bpass. With Woodlands out you can forget about DD zone (to be completely honest, removing the S exit from purple would've been better than removing the two S exits from Woodlands, but that's just because I love dooring people in cabin ), vial becomes the locus of PK, and the zones are no larger or more taxing on fadeless trolls than eastern PK (not that the PK style is remotely similar over there). Getting out there is an issue, I suppose, but that's only because the zones are so unpopulated now. You used to be able to find pukes around SH regularly and PK would slowly move south from there, which is why my concern is more with horse loads.