Projectile Logs

[Zeeb]

I'm probably one of the most die hard rogue players and both my highest playtime characters are rogues and I'd consider myself good at landing stabs. I'm currently mostly playing other characters because rogues have been made fairly weak until top kit and then become highly dependent on who you are fighting as to how effective they are.

In the past with master damage being such a big part of stab damage blicking, if I remember right non master chance of blicking 280 HP was ~10%.

Even zerk blicking a 400+ HP wasn't a sure thing.

With the changes, a statted and lvl'd to 31 gives the same blicking power as a master. Which is something I almost take issue to...I thought it was a good barrier to entry that a new rogue wouldn't have the same stabbing power as a master.

...

I thought the pk was pretty fun, needed more fodder on LS though, PK were most of the people are extremely low chance of dying is pretty boring. 1 low chance alt per 3 high chance would be better, but it is more a player attitude then alts I suppose.

[Foil]

Problem with the mentality a lot of us have on this game is the mentality that "Something has happened to me, I don't like it, it needs to be changed!!!"

I get it, you guys don't like rogues, you think they are boring, you think they are strong, you think they need changed for the over all worse. Just cause you feel a certain way, does mean you are right. When you get stabbed, yep, it kinda sucks. However, it's quite avoidable, it rarely kills anyone over 320 hps, shame that you are calculating rogue power from a chanelers viewpoint cause well they usually die to stabs from full. Thank god for that, channelers are for more detrimental to good pk than rogues are. Especially super statted channelers with bonuses. I can see where troll rogues are a problem for you, you play a super reckless style of fleeing in and out of the room, never building flee lag, avoiding being bashed, and essentially free weaving. All the while if you warder is online you really throw concern out the window and you will freely eat stabs to get weaves off. Troll rogues are the weakest they have ever been, they are not rewarding to play in almost anyway anymore. The counter reckless channelers in pk, whoops what an oversight, a channeler can't freely flee in and out avoiding nearly all risk of pk while doing ludicrous damage when rogues are in play. Seems fine to me. Then again I think dung like this;

R HP:Wounded DP:Full MV:Winded - an elite trolloc: Beaten - Davor: Wounded >
Flee

Davor sends you sprawling with a powerful bash!
Davor sends an elite trolloc sprawling with a powerful bash!

R HP:Wounded DP:Full MV:Winded - an elite trolloc: Beaten - Davor: Wounded >

Ouch! That Really did HURT!

Your body is burned by a tremendous fireball sent by Taleena!

R HP:Battered DP:Full MV:Winded - an elite trolloc: Beaten - Davor: Wounded >

Taleena strikes an elite trolloc's body.
Davor scythes an elite trolloc's left hand hard.
Davor scythes your right leg very hard.

R HP:Beaten DP:Full MV:Winded - an elite trolloc: Critical - Davor: Wounded >

Davor scythes an elite trolloc's right leg hard.
Davor scythes your head hard.

R HP:Beaten DP:Full MV:Winded - an elite trolloc: Critical - Davor: Wounded >
Ouch! That Really did HURT!

You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING so much!

Your body is burned by a tremendous fireball sent by Taleena!
You panic and attempt to flee!


Davor moves swiftly to protect Taleena.
Gok pierces Davor's left leg hard.

You flee head over heels.
The Blight
This deeply in the Blight, you can see how it earned its name. Stunted trees and
flowers grow in obscene colors around you. The air is thick and rancid. There
are sounds all around you, and you watch your step carefully.
[ obvious exits: N E S ]
There are some tracks of a ridden mount leaving south.
There are some tracks of a ridden mount leaving south.
There are some tracks of a ridden mount leaving south.
There are some tracks of a ridden mount leaving east.
The corpse of a rat is lying here.
The corpse of the blight bear is lying here.
A black shadow stallion paws the ground here, fiery-red eyes shining with evil, being ridden by you.
An enormous blight worm towers above you, making an eerie shrill scream.
[change mood wimpy]
Mood changed to: Wimpy

R HP:Critical DP:Full MV:Winded >

Is far more annoying and toxic than some shitty rogues hiding and praying to land a stab, which is generally more detrimental to the side they are on than the enemy.

[Rig]

Rogues are still strong. They're still the best melee class in the game, especially tied in with projectiles. The addition of rank damage across the board just made the melee power of rogues even stronger.

Defense-wise, unless you're rocking a top kit, you're not breaking more than 145-147 dodge and 160 parry. That's with 99 short blades, 19 strength, and 91 shield parry, and 99 dodge. Neither terrible nor a great change. Just kind of something to work around.

As for backstab and damage, the average for most daggers is between 250-280 hp stabs. Those super high hp stabs that hit 380+ hps are huge outliers currently, either being berserk or hitting a very very low % roll. Even being berserk does not guarantee you're stabbing for that amount of hp anymore.

Trolloc rogues have to choose between pracs, which isn't anything new. It just got a bit worse with removal of 2h daggers. They also get to choose between multiple different buffs. Better stab land %, better mobility, better melee potential. Or, like Jaimie said, you can just forgo notice and get the most out of all of those.

We could argue the semantics between rogues being overpowered, and channelers being overpowered, but the fact is that both of those character types have recently been more balanced in healthier ways. Whining about the kinds of characters people play, again, when most of us in this thread play our most bonused and powerful alts consistently is just weird.

[Davor]

Problem with the mentality a lot of us have on this game is the mentality that "Something has happened to me, I don't like it, it needs to be changed!!!"

I get it, you guys don't like rogues, you think they are boring, you think they are strong, you think they need changed for the over all worse. Just cause you feel a certain way, does mean you are right. When you get stabbed, yep, it kinda sucks. However, it's quite avoidable, it rarely kills anyone over 320 hps, shame that you are calculating rogue power from a chanelers viewpoint cause well they usually die to stabs from full. Thank god for that, channelers are for more detrimental to good pk than rogues are. Especially super statted channelers with bonuses. I can see where troll rogues are a problem for you, you play a super reckless style of fleeing in and out of the room, never building flee lag, avoiding being bashed, and essentially free weaving. All the while if you warder is online you really throw concern out the window and you will freely eat stabs to get weaves off. Troll rogues are the weakest they have ever been, they are not rewarding to play in almost anyway anymore. The counter reckless channelers in pk, whoops what an oversight, a channeler can't freely flee in and out avoiding nearly all risk of pk while doing ludicrous damage when rogues are in play. Seems fine to me. Then again I think dung like this;

R HP:Wounded DP:Full MV:Winded - an elite trolloc: Beaten - Davor: Wounded >
Flee

Davor sends you sprawling with a powerful bash!
Davor sends an elite trolloc sprawling with a powerful bash!

R HP:Wounded DP:Full MV:Winded - an elite trolloc: Beaten - Davor: Wounded >

Ouch! That Really did HURT!

Your body is burned by a tremendous fireball sent by Taleena!

R HP:Battered DP:Full MV:Winded - an elite trolloc: Beaten - Davor: Wounded >

Taleena strikes an elite trolloc's body.
Davor scythes an elite trolloc's left hand hard.
Davor scythes your right leg very hard.

R HP:Beaten DP:Full MV:Winded - an elite trolloc: Critical - Davor: Wounded >

Davor scythes an elite trolloc's right leg hard.
Davor scythes your head hard.

R HP:Beaten DP:Full MV:Winded - an elite trolloc: Critical - Davor: Wounded >
Ouch! That Really did HURT!

You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING so much!

Your body is burned by a tremendous fireball sent by Taleena!
You panic and attempt to flee!


Davor moves swiftly to protect Taleena.
Gok pierces Davor's left leg hard.

You flee head over heels.
The Blight
This deeply in the Blight, you can see how it earned its name. Stunted trees and
flowers grow in obscene colors around you. The air is thick and rancid. There
are sounds all around you, and you watch your step carefully.
[ obvious exits: N E S ]
There are some tracks of a ridden mount leaving south.
There are some tracks of a ridden mount leaving south.
There are some tracks of a ridden mount leaving south.
There are some tracks of a ridden mount leaving east.
The corpse of a rat is lying here.
The corpse of the blight bear is lying here.
A black shadow stallion paws the ground here, fiery-red eyes shining with evil, being ridden by you.
An enormous blight worm towers above you, making an eerie shrill scream.
[change mood wimpy]
Mood changed to: Wimpy

R HP:Critical DP:Full MV:Winded >

Is far more annoying and toxic than some shitty rogues hiding and praying to land a stab, which is generally more detrimental to the side they are on than the enemy.

I don't think I am right at all. I can only express my thoughts and opinions just like everyone else does. I just get told I shouldn't have an opinion because of my character choices which is silly.

I think we can all agree on multiple things at once, rogues to me are still pretty high reward - low risk (unless you play like Zeeb which is not the standard), Warder/AS drain is probably OP as well, especially when you have the best channeler on the game with 600+ hp. The warder part of it is frustrating and annoying (but still obviously far more OP than a standard character). For the PK that Jaster is referring, every time they hit I would go scratched to batt within 2-3 rounds because everyone would stack on me - this is because we played outnumbered 2:1. Also with multi bash now rolling on everyone individually (probably for the better), the chance of me landing on all 3-4 players on me is rare and if those are multiple bashers - which they were in this case, I would always get bashed then eat 2 rounds of damage with 4 heavy hitters on me. You can't complain that healing me is OP in this situation, it was that or we just leave. She doesn't have infinite SPs, it seemed more like you guys had infinite reinforcements, for nearly 1-2 hours it was us same 4 humans. Combo is also far less abs as it used to be which is very new to me, I was not around during the recent changes the last year-2 years. I'm used to fades with 83 abs and I have been pleasantly surprised that mobs/absers are now eating through combo (another fantastic change). As far as your concerns with Taleena running around being stupid, she doesn't always have a warder on. Also, we know he does the same stupid dung on Jestin with probably equal success - who has no warder so its really just that he is a bit too good at channelers.

Regardless, after re-reading my posts I feel like I am asking to further up rogues and actually not down them :p If the standard damage right now is actually 200-280 and I am advocating for more % landing rate as well as higher projectile damage, shorter missed lag, I feel like I am probably arguing to make them even more OP. I do think the trade off should be no longer being able to blick with any consistency.

We could down weave damage and remove the limit on FC hps.

Also, I think you guys need to re-evaluate where you think I am coming from. In the last 2-3 years, I have died to stab twice? Maybe thrice. I think its the same for Taleena but probably more as he plays channelers. My problem is just with how bad it can potentially make PK. I also agree with Jaster that they are weak links, from a technical PK standpoint, an abser who can bash me, has 400HP and 80+ abs which will take forever to whittle down is far more concerning. But they are still the bread and butter of PK. In conclusion, my main gripe is: Rogues - like Seanchan, are just for the unskilled who want wizkills/easy kills/high reward low risk :)

[Foil]

I get the crux of the argument and do agree the risk to reward on stab might not be there. I feel the same way about channies.

Risk/reward is highly skewed these days anyways, gear is not an issue, time in cod/l greatly reduced, tps collection isn't a big deal except to a few. The penalty of death for 98% of the mud is non existent except some mild inconveniences.

I think there are plenty of valid arguments on this thread from both perspectives. That being said, I'd just say deal with it and quit complaining. We used to go years without updates to a severely imbalanced game and everyone just played it. Now I feel like we have to see changes from month to month and very few of them actually do much to stimulate or change the landscape of pk or the game as a whole. The game isn't the problem, it's the players.

[Turg]

I just died zerk from 85hps. Nothing i could do.

It shouldnt stop bash timers at least 100 %

My solutions.

Make it so you that you cant throw on a Zerk PC

Since this is typically used to kill poor absers anyway

Or

Limit nro of throws to say like 5/tick so you just couldnt throw someone down like 200 hps with no real countrer.

[Prykor]

I just died zerk from 85hps. Nothing i could do.

It shouldnt stop bash timers at least 100 %

My solutions.

Make it so you that you cant throw on a Zerk PC

Since this is typically used to kill poor absers anyway

Or

Limit nro of throws to say like 5/tick so you just couldnt throw someone down like 200 hps with no real countrer.

They are already limited by how many you have sheathed...though that can easily be 5+ on a char in full dodge, and one or two rounds to restock the throwing arsenal with a proper macro.

Kick spam and projectiles tend to be oppressive vs absers, yes. those skills being able to completely negate the last ditch berserk bashing and score a very free kill is something that should be addressed, though those skills do fill a niche and I don't believe they should be toned down.

my solution would be:
Make mood berserk prevent all timer interruptions outside of bash/incap/freeze/sleep/setc. to include bash and weave timers!

[Davor]

That’s actually a good idea and makes sense. Someone berserk is not stopping because someone kicked them in the balls and/or threw a small knife at them.

I agree with Foil. I’m whining to whine. It’s been good being back :)