2017 Weapons Overhaul: Feedback

[Roadeur]

If it wasn't for masters with too many pracs, I'd say steel sai would be great as a high damage but very low defence weapon. Maybe a better alternative is a super high OB sblade with bad def?

[Tolveor]

Fencing blades already fill that niche. I'd love to see a high ob/lower weight 2h longblade though. the way the abs heron used to be was interesting. Though I agree the abs heron need bash etc so maybe take jagged or something to do that

[Xylan]

//Research. Code. Innovate

Preliminary Data
Weapon Stat Averages

Thoughts on Weapons Overall

• Many defensive weapons have higher damage on average than full offensive 2h abs weapons.
• There are defensive weapons with high defense with not much malus in other areas. (see 1h longs, 1h and 2h spears, 1h axes).
• There are a few weapons that have too many negatives and not enough positives, thus rendering them as a poor weapon of choice.
• 1h long blades and non-attacking fencing blades overall heavily outperform medium blades in efficiency.
• 1h non-attacking fencing blades have too low of pb to make them appealing over long blades. The disarm capability and higher ob justification is invalidated by the low weight and dmg (pearl sabre specifically).
• Medium blades and 1h clubs do less damage overall than shortblades.
• 1h and 2h clubs are overall nowhere near as appealing as all other neighboring classes, regardless of their bash bonus (though, adjusted in Nov 2017, new stat results are unknown)
• 2h staves should be higher pb than spears and tridents on average as every other stat is significantly lower. Honed metal's dmg and leatherleaf's bash potential are possibly overjustified and both should at least have pb in the 100's.
• Fencing blades w/atk, javelins, 1h shortblades, and 2h longblades are the most balanced weapon classes to date.
• 2h defensive polearms should at least have as much pb as 2h spears and have some damage taken off to help justify since they do have a little more weight, but they also cannot charge, so that is another aspect to consider.
• Lances have abysmal ob and weight at absolutely no perks to justify (non-defense 1h, limited mending).
• Lances could probably just be given some pb and thrown into the 1h spears class to fill with mid-tier options other than mahogany, as tridents are into Polearms and whips/chains are into Flails.

Thoughts on Individual weapons

• Twisted iron scimitar is too high in dmg for the overall usefulness it has. Comparing 2h abs longs, it does the same dmg as gsword and more than others (claymore, colossal, jagged, two-handed). Defensive weapons should not do more dmg than their 2h abs counterparts.
• Serrated axe is too good of a weapon that loads on lithe woman's abs load. The gleaming dagger and fur staff alternative loads do not even compare.
• Enormous axe has better stats than the Blight killer and is also direct upgrade over bronze axe (every single stat is higher). The weight should probably be lowered, even despite the low ob.
• Long handled halberd suffers from the same glorious problem the enormous axe has. It's just too damn good. Though, there's not much option variation within the class of abs polearms.
• Fire-drop whip is too good in ob, pb, and dmg, giving yew staff a run for its money as the best shield parry channeler weapon (ring-quilloned is no contest as its 49 pb is countered by the alarmingly low 65 ob).
• Saw axe is too good in dmg with decent pb and weight. Though it has low ob, there's not enough justification for it having nearly rare-tier defensive weapon dmg.
• Basilard and gold spear are slightly too good overall for the small effort required to craft them. Make some of their materials load on non-soloable smobs only and increase the gold amount to 200. This is both a game participation and a money sink opportunity wrapped into one.
• Dark barbed flail has lost its title as the king of tree-eater. Bronze scourge offers more ob and pb and does almost the same dmg.
• Silver plated sword has very low ob, pb, and dmg to justify the 15 lbs. Decreasing the weight to 13 can allow the increasing of everything else and easily make this one viable. The weight seems too high for a common medium blade anyway, when every other blade is around 4-7 lbs, this one is a sore thumb.
• Pearl sabre has amazingly high ob, but its dmg (about the same as a shortblade) is the only thing keeping it from being palatable. As it no longer attacks, the dmg should be increased from a miserable 14 to somewhere closer to where the opal tulwar sits (19 dmg). The decision of more ob (and more pb) vs more weight (and less pb) should be all that separates the two.
• Falcata and blue scimitar need more damage as they are currently put to shame by every shortblade, including jeweled dagger.
• Amber-hilted iron sword has too little pb, despite it being the highest ob med blade with fair dmg, it is still miles away from even reaching the efficiency of a pale steel sword, which is the long blade bottom feeder.
• Bone-handled blade is the most balanced medium blade and the others could benefit from using its stats as a baseline: good ob, good pb, low weight, good damage, while not over-the-top in any one thing. It does not have the weight for reliable bashing nor are there specialties to consider, so there is a lot of play for some of the stats to shine. The same should hold true for the others.
• Interesting: long handled axe have pretty humorous stats. It is a 1h very low ob (leatherleaf staff ob) and pb (emerald foil pb) weapon that is a whopping 16 lbs (heron greatsword lbs) with fair dmg that you can buy for a couple crowns. Emphasis on 1-handed and 16 lbs.
• Also interesting: partisan of ghealdan does more dmg and has more efficiency than a diamond-tipped lance, but the lance is the only 18 lb 1-handed weapon ingame and is much more rare.

Changes I would Make (Actual Numbers)
Sometimes it helps to have the numbers right in front of you so you don't miss important bits and opportunities to cross-reference, and to double check to make sure what you're changing seems reasonable in the big picture.

Setup:
19 str, non-master warrior, wimpy, 99% weapons, dismounted (except spears/lances) vs naked target.

Rounding:
Damage values are rounded up from .6, and down from .5.

Goals and general guidelines:
1. Prevent "cookie-cutter" and "no-brainer" weapon selections by having at least 1-2 viable weapons in each weapon class that have similar stats to other weapons in different classes with a similar niche. See "on par with x" comments below.
2. Defensive common weapons should logically have less damage output than 2h full offensive abs common weapons, as a trade off to having defense. The only exception will be lances and should have 2h abs-like weapon damage and ob, with just slightly less weight. Common abs weapons should average no less than 19 damage, and defensive common weapons should average no more than 20.
3. There are 4 major weapon stats and not any one common weapon should excel in all of them.
4. Defensive weapons that are heavy enough to bash dodge should have less defense and/or ob.
5. Defensive weapons that are lighter and do not have specializations should have more dependable ob and defense to compensate for the lack of offensive capability.
6. There are a few classes that only have 1 top-tier common (non-store-bought) weapon, so add new weapons to help fill in the gap so that there are at least 2 choices for each weapon class.
7. A 2h offensive abs weapon that has high damage should compensate with lower ob and/or weight.
8. Spears and lances damage was calculated with the riding bonus.
9. Only whips, high defensive staves and attacking weapons should have damage averages that are below 16 as the low damage is notoriously justified in other areas with these weapons.
10. The values of each stat are including the changes listed in parenthesis to the right.
11. Weights should be divisible by 0.5.
12. Everything should be fun to play without feeling underpowered.

2h Long blades (abs) (dmg & ob on gsword DOWN, ob on colossal DOWN)

Code: Select all

jagged edged        - 92 ob, 0 pb, 15.0 lb, hack, 19 dmg ✔
two-handed          - 74 ob, 0 pb, 12.5 lb, slash, 17 dmg ✔
claymore            - 92 ob, 0 pb, 17.0 lb, smite, 20 dmg ✔
wicked scythed      - 90 ob, 0 pb, 15.5 lb, slice, 22 dmg ✔
gargantuan          - 71 ob, 0 pb, 18.0 lb, hack, 20 dmg (-7 ob, -1 dmg)
colossal            - 70 ob, 0 pb, 18.5 lb, slash, 19 dmg (-9 ob)

2h Polearms (abs) (dmg UP, wt DOWN, new polearm added)

Code: Select all

halberd             - 86 ob, 0 pb, 17.0 lb, hack, 21 dmg (-1 lbs, +2 dmg)
crescent scythe     - 73 ob, 0 pb, 18.0 lb, slice, 20 dmg (new! smob-only load)

2h Flails (abs) (PERFECT!, new flail added)

Code: Select all

binnol              - 77 ob, 0 pb, 16.5 lb, crush, 19 dmg ✔
meteor hammer       - 70 ob, 0 pb, 15.0 lb, crush, 21 dmg (new! smob-only load)

2h Polearms (pb UP, wt & dmg DOWN)

Code: Select all

barbed trident      - 76 ob, 94 pb, 15.0 lb, lance, 19 dmg (+9 pb, -1 lbs)
blue trident        - 72 ob, 107 pb, 14.0 lb, lance, 18 dmg (+11 pb, -3 dmg)

2h Spears (dmg on gold spear DOWN)

Code: Select all

blue tasseled       - 71 ob, 113 pb, 13.0 lb, strike, 19 dmg ✔
gold chased         - 77 ob, 96 pb, 15.0 lb, slash, 19 dmg (-3 dmg)

1h Spears (wt, pb & dmg on mahogany spear DOWN, new spear added)

Code: Select all

mahogany spear      - 72 ob, 38 pb, 10.0 lb, strike, 17 dmg (-0.7 lbs, -4 pb, -3 dmg)
topaz partisan      - 77 ob, 42 pb, 12.5 lb, strike, 19 dmg (new! smob-only load)

Lances (ob, wt & dmg UP, new lance added)

Code: Select all

hollow steel        - 76 ob, 0 pb, 13.0 lb, lance, 22 dmg (+7 ob, +1 lbs)
leatherleaf         - 75 ob, 0 pb, 14.0 lb, lance, 20 dmg (+7 ob, +2 lbs, +1 dmg)
steel-shafted       - 72 ob, 0 pb, 16.0 lb, lance, 20 dmg (+7 ob, +1 dmg)
obsidian lance      - 77 ob, 0 pb, 15.0 lb, lance, 23 dmg (new! smob-only load)

Staves (dmg UP, pb on honed metal UP)

Code: Select all

sungwood            - 73 ob, 132 pb, 9.0 lb, strike, 11 dmg ✔
bladed feather      - 82 ob, 118 pb, 11.0 lb, slash, 17 dmg (+1 dmg)
leatherleaf         - 66 ob, 113 pb, 15.0 lb, pound, 17 dmg (+1 dmg)
honed metal         - 70 ob, 100 pb, 8.0 lb, strike, 19 dmg (+2 ob, +12 pb, +2 dmg)

1h Long blades (pb DOWN, dmg on twisted scimitar DOWN)

Code: Select all

brass general       - 76 ob, 21 pb, 14.5 lb, slash, 18 dmg ✔
oddly longsword     - 78 ob, 35 pb, 12.5 lb, slash, 19 dmg (-4 pb)
ivory gold          - 78 ob, 28 pb, 13.5 lb, slash, 18 dmg (-4 pb)
twisted scimitar    - 80 ob, 30 pb, 13.0 lb, slice, 19 dmg (-4 pb, -2 dmg)
pale steel          - 74 ob, 44 pb, 10.5 lb, slash, 15 dmg ✔

Medium blades (dmg, ob, & pb UP, silver plated on par with twisted scim, blue scim w/ ocl)

Code: Select all

blue scimitar       - 81 ob, 37 pb, 12.5 lb, slash, 18 dmg (+12 ob, +5 dmg, +5.5 lbs)
falcata             - 80 ob, 20 pb, 5.0 lb, slice, 20 dmg (+4 ob, +7 dmg, -18 pb)
ring quill          - 65 ob, 49 pb, 6.0 lb, slash, 14 dmg ✔
plain curved        - 81 ob, 40 pb, 5.0 lb, slash, 12 dmg (+2 ob, +9 pb)
iron amber          - 90 ob, 31 pb, 6.0 lb, slash, 16 dmg (+8 ob, +13 pb, +1 dmg)
bone-handled        - 77 ob, 37 pb, 4.0 lb, slash, 17 dmg ✔
silver plated       - 82 ob, 36 pb, 13.0 lb, slash, 18 dmg (+10 ob, +13 pb, +5 dmg, -2 lbs)

Fencing blades (n/atk) (sabre as low weight/high offense, tulwar as high weight/low offense and on par with ivory/gold sword, pb equalized)

Code: Select all

pearl sabre         - 94 ob, 28 pb, 10.0 lb, slash, 18 dmg (+4 dmg, +4 pb)
opal tulwar         - 84 ob, 28 pb, 13.5 lb, slash, 18 dmg (+5 ob, -1 dmg, +3 pb)

Flails (dmg on dark barbed and quirt UP, pb on firedrop DOWN)

Code: Select all

jeweled quirt       - 96 ob, 24 pb, 1.5 lb, sting, 10 dmg (+3 dmg)
firedrop handled    - 82 ob, 38 pb, 3.0 lb, whip, 12 dmg (-3 pb, -2 lbs)
bronze scourge      - 70 ob, 25 pb, 13.5 lb, scythe, 17 dmg ✔
dark barbed flail   - 64 ob, 10 pb, 6.0 lb, slice, 20 dmg (+2 dmg, -0.4 lbs)

1h Clubs (pb, ob & dmg UP)

Code: Select all

bone                - 71 ob, 25 pb, 15.0 lb, pound, 16 dmg (+2 dmg)
banded cudgel       - 76 ob, 27 pb, 13.5 lb, pound, 17 dmg (+5 ob, +4 dmg)
flanged mace        - 74 ob, 32 pb, 12.5 lb, crush, 18 dmg (+10 pb)

2h Clubs (wt and dmg UP, ob DOWN, prod on par w/ gaxe, spiked w/ colossal, mallet w/ gsword)

Code: Select all

prod                - 65 ob, 0 pb, 17.0 lb, pound, 24 dmg (-15 ob, +1 lbs, +4 dmg)
spiked warhammer    - 70 ob, 0 pb, 18.5 lb, pound, 19 dmg (-3 ob, + 1 lbs, +2 dmg)
silver mallet       - 72 ob, 0 pb, 18.0 lb, pound, 20 dmg (-3 ob, +1 lbs, +1 dmg)

1h Axes (wt & dmg DOWN)

Code: Select all

long handled axe    - 62 ob, 14 pb, 16.0 lb, cleave, 16 dmg ✔
finely axe          - 78 ob, 26 pb, 12.5 lb, scythe, 19 dmg (+1 dmg)
serrated axe        - 80 ob, 26 pb, 13.0 lb, blast, 17 dmg (-2 dmg, -1 lbs)
saw axe             - 72 ob, 30 pb, 13.0 lb, cleave, 20 dmg (-3 dmg)

2h Axes (ob UP, wt & dmg DOWN, gaxe on par w/ wsl, eaxe w/ claymore, taxe w/colossal)

Code: Select all

gold axe            - 72 ob, 0 pb, 16.5 lb, cleave, 18 dmg ✔
double axe          - 70 ob, 0 pb, 17.0 lb, cleave, 20 dmg ✔
bronze axe          - 76 ob, 0 pb, 17.5 lb, blast, 21 dmg (+6 ob, -2 dmg)
grim axe            - 82 ob, 0 pb, 15.5 lb, blast, 24 dmg (-1 lbs, -1 dmg)
enormous axe        - 74 ob, 0 pb, 17.0 lb, blast, 22 dmg (+2 ob, -1 lbs, -3 dmg)
titanic axe         - 72 ob, 0 pb, 18.5 lb, blast, 19 dmg (+2 ob, -3 dmg)

Javelins (PERFECT!)

Code: Select all

barbed javelin      - 77 ob, 34 pb, 2.5 lb, pierce, 11 dmg ✔
pine javelin        - 74 ob, 42 pb, 5.0 lb, pierce, 11 dmg ✔

Fencing blades (w/atk) (wt on ruby rapier DOWN, new fencing blade added)

Code: Select all

emerald foil        - 92 ob, 12 pb, 2.0 lb, pierce, 13 dmg ✔
ruby rapier         - 80 ob, 21 pb, 2.0 lb, pierce, 12 dmg (-0.5 wt)
sapphire epee		 - 86 ob, 5 pb, 2.0 lb, pierce, 14 dmg (new! smob-load only)

1h Short blades (dmg on basilard DOWN)

Code: Select all

jeweled             - 94 ob, 7 pb, 1.0 lb, pierce, 12 dmg ✔
blackened kris      - 80 ob, 12 pb, 1.0 lb, pierce, 12 dmg ✔
green jade          - 86 ob, 12 pb, 1.5 lb, pierce, 13 dmg ✔
clear curved        - 80 ob, 17 pb, 0.5 lb, pierce, 13 dmg (-0.3 lbs)
red stone           - 74 ob, 5 pb, 1.5 lb, pierce, 15 dmg ✔
basilard            - 78 ob, 7 pb, 1.5 lb, pierce, 15 dmg (-1 dmg)

Full Weapon Names:

• a double-headed meteor hammer (2h chain)
• a crescent-bladed scythe (2h polearm)
• a lance of obsidian and gold (1h lance)
• a partisan notched with topaz (1h spear)
• an epee adorned with sapphire (1h fencing w/atk)

*** Warning: Subject to change. Do Not Quote. ***

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          ______                        _  _______ ____________  ______ 
         /_  __/__  ____ _____ ___     | |/ / ___//  _/ ____/  |/  /   |
          / / / _ \/ __ `/ __ `__ \    |   /\__ \ / // / __/ /|_/ / /| |
         / / /  __/ /_/ / / / / / /   /   |___/ // // /_/ / /  / / ___ |
        /_/  \___/\__,_/_/ /_/ /_/   /_/|_/____/___/\____/_/  /_/_/  |_|
                                                                        

[Rark]

don't think you should down lbs on tridents, I think the tradeoff is that you are actually able to bash full dodgers with having lower pb. Else what you get is basically a slightly better bashing BT spear with no charge, which already exists as the gold spear + it has charge. That said the PB does seem really low after current changes. I've only used the darkened steel one on masters and even then I've been struggling to break 140 pb, so maybe the parry is too low to make them viable for nonmasters.

Would be nice to see something more done to lances, a couple more dt lance loads would be neat, maybe even make it a 100% load in one random store across the sides/maps. They really could use a little bump to OB or PB depending on where you want to take them, combo weapon or purely abs maybe make them 2handed or 1.5 while we're at it. But I think lances were never meant to be primary weapon and more a secondary you'd break out to charge and maybe bash if your primary was a lower weight weapon.

[Petra]

a) Don't ruin flails. They are (for the most part) zero bash, ok defence for a trade off of lower damage compared to a bunch of other defence weapons, but with multihit benefits if you know how to use it right/can buff lots of things. They're one of the more interesting/flexible classes if used right.
b) Don't ruin lances - they need to stay abs. I'm actually somewhat confused why more people don't use them. Having had them on an ABSer they actually make a fairly decent bashing/charging weapon. Sure the mend thing is annoying, and the fact that everyone just stores DT Lances and never plays them is intensely annoying. They need a tiny bit more OB maybe, maybe a sprinkle more damage, and a top tier that's a bit more reliable. As it is they're one of the few unique and interesting classes, next to flails.
c)Fix medium blades. They suck.
d)Fix the fact that so many combo weapons give defence AND have similar/higher damage to actual ABS weapons.

[Hress]

About damage of weapons, damage bonuses, other stuff damages.
To be clear in mind when you want to suggest to up/down something.
Strength and master damage bonuses
Weapons damage
Charge damage and affects of skills
Backstab damage and affects of skills
Projectiles damage and affects of skills
Weaves damage and weather dependencies(just summary info)
ABS cutdown

[Relaes]

Is it completely impossible to get the actual data from imms instead of having players spend hours and hours testing for what one might claim ought to be readily available? I mean what's the point of keeping damage rolls and other data secret? To give players a sense of pride and accomplishment when they find out something changed?

[Maegon]

That was actually one of my favorite things about Kinslayer. Published weapon/armor data and smob load %.

[Eol]

Xylan - I appreciate the work you've been doing compiling info, but I prefer the method that Hress' uses to report weapon statistics concerning damage. There are also instances in which your values are in disagreement with his values and this potentially creates conclusions that may not be the case. I personally think there is value in reporting the variability of a weapon.

[Xylan]

Yea, my data is not 100% in precision when factoring in particular schematics (forgot the disclaimer), but they are fairly consistent estimations and really won't differ too drastically from reality. The primary focus was getting some base numbers up fast after the big weapon overhaul, so people could get a jump start on what to use and what not to use post-changes.

Since Hress' data is rightfully centered around a proper normalized baseline, I went the alternative route of a "best case scenario" baseline that already has all possible add-ons included except for master, or in other words, the approximate maximum average potential that one can expect out of a weapon without the need of applicable formula. I super simplified the process, though it still took a bit of time to aggregate and help from many people. (btw, big thanks to Bellona, Aine, Raya, Sephon, and others!)