Fostering an Accountable Community

[Prykor]

The next question then is how many players have been declanned, lost a ton of QPs/rank, bonuses, jailed for a period of time, etc. due to these sort of events? I know that there are many players that have been declanned. Usually for the most egregious of violations (darkfriend and such). I haven't really been party to those things on my characters. Closest thing would be on my Aes Sedai, again mostly this was with novices or Accepted.

The tower is right up there with Fades and Dreadlords -- and back to my first point. Problems arise with the clans that have the most pk bonuses that attract those that care first and foremost for the bonuses, and any sort of RP or expectations tied with #4. How many times has Kryyg been defaded? or Shzrei's current status of being defaded? or Jestin De-DL'd or otherwise?

You don't see these problems in other clans because they don't attract those sort of folks. With all of the justice clans, that have no pk bonuses, the main thing that you get from them are RP and RP-related equipment retools. It's a lot less work to police when you don't have to deal with that crap, and if or when somebody does do something, it can be handled quite quickly. I believe there should be some sort of expectation that a ToL post would accompany such a thing, but alas that's half the point of this discussion.

The biggest problem, I think, is communication. As an example, we recently had a player suffer some consequences for violating basic roleplay requirements in the past. Until a few weeks ago, I had not heard ANYTHING about this happening. Several players knew about it and by the time I found out, I believe the Watchers were already looking into it and deciding on a punishment. I think this happens a lot more than you think. Maybe I don't pay attention - I like to think I do, when I actually play...but had someone notified me about it, I like to think I would have done something other than looking the other way.

Is this the typical experience? If we don't know about these things when they happen by virtue of just being present, if no one bothers to tell us about it, how can we start a dialogue with someone to enforce roleplay requirements and dole out appropriate punishments?

One day they were a fade, the next a trolloc. Lots of these things happen very fast, and with very little notice. Obviously, the situations for most of the defading were due to egregious exploiting of stuff that warranted imms to step in and take action, but another example I have would be for Cera.
One day, she was a tower character, then for like a week, she wasn't (and I assumed that she was but just incog), and then after the ToD post where she became a known DF/DL... I learned that she was kicked out for getting caught with killing an innocent (unsure if this was a trophy check or more true-to-expectations IC sleuthing...), but the way the tower was very hush hush about it until after the cat was out of the bag certainly didn't help the matter and missed a lot of what could have been fun RP (until the attack happened..

I will say this now: If you see a Child of Light grouping with the White Tower, mail us. If you see a Hand of the Light grouping with the White Tower, mail them. If you see an Illian Companion returning gear to a Defender of the Stone or a Defender of the Stone returning gear to an Illian Companion or a Defender or Winged Guard doing the same to each other, mail the clan of the offender. If you witness a Lion Warden trying to murder the butcher, mail them. If you see a novice not on the island or an Accepted Healing Seanchan, mail the Hall. Unless those people in charge know about it, they cannot do anything about it, by virtue of not being aware. I think for the most part just about everyone sticks to basic roleplay. There are a few people who skirt the line between acceptable and bad roleplay and even fewer still that outright cross it.

The only thing I could see about this is whether people have an aversion to what they believe to be "snitching" or if they just don't care because it doesn't affect them - the idea that we are all adults now and this is just a game so we should have fun instead of tattling on each other and policing each other and our actions.

I have a different approach to this: MAKE THE INTERACTIONS INTERESTING.
Half the reason I gave up on my tower novice was this stupid expectation that I am expected to RP as if I was already shawled while doing the damn dishes for Laras. If I put on incog for any reason, the who-list would give me away and It'd feel like an OOC outing. If somebody saw me in Caemlyn, I would expect to get all of a templated and boring "you left the island without permission. -X qp." that might as well have been a mobol message instead of any sort of questioning as to what I was up to, why I did it, or whether the spiced muffins from the Caemlyn tavern are better enough than the ones baked in TV to make the punishment I'm about to receive worth it.
And naturally, acting like an age appropriate novice means that you clearly aren't ready for the next rank in spite of 150 qps worth of washing dishes and shelving books and promising that you will act to rank upon receiving it.
That isn't to say that there aren't some amazing folks to RP with in there, but that isn't the most common occurrence from my experiences.

Now, novices/JA and such participating in PK is an area where a hard line would need to be drawn, but otherwise the draconian black/white punishments that largely look like the bare minimum of RP necessary to move things along really defeats the point. I know that around that time, there was epidemic of over-awarding for friends that was quashed, which hopefully made things better in that regard, but that was my albiet limited in scope, experience.

When I run into a sedai doing the daily quest of blackmailing a family and kidnapping their daughter suspected of being able to use the one power, I go out of my way to sort-of subtlely ask about it -- and it does help that several white bridge and caemlyn mobs will back up that sentiment if you know how to ask the question the right way in their presence. I can't say that i've ever gotten the *leaves room* followed by a whisper a minute later saying along the lines of "sorry kinda busy atm" when interacting with a sedai, but the interactions I do have had been enjoyable never long enough to make a post about.

Now, other situations may warrant longer time periods. I don't know what goes into the decision for that. The recent event with a player in my clan apparently warranted time longer than that. Again, I don't really know all the details. Perhaps it was more flagrant than I understood, perhaps there is history with the player themselves? As another example of this, look at Draz over the years. I think he is a good guy, but hoo boy, repeat offender if there ever was one.

A lot of it might just be the fact that the population is down. How many clans really have a big presence, other than White Tower? Winged Guard can have four or five people on at a time. Northern clans like Lancers? The ones who don't bother with southern politics? Maybe it is just more likely that a clan like White Tower will do something and get punished for it because there are more people in the White Tower, including a lot of initiates since the policy is to clan any woman who can channel?

Unless it's forced by staff, Kitiara, I think it's up to each individual if they want to do this. If you see someone do something they shouldn't, you need to speak up and notify their superiors. Otherwise, no one is going to know and nothing is going to be done.

I would usually try to separate the imm-adminstered punishments from the RP ones that should stem from the clans. It gets harder when it's the same 2-3 people behind the keyboard across 4-5 clans that could look like severe conflicts of interest, but alas the player base is what it is for now.

To take that Draz example.... I'm surprised it wasn't used as a "We had intel of a group of murderous pirates hiding in your lands. We've taken great efforts to eradicate these threats that have plundered some of the white tower's trade ships, and in a showing of good will toward the mutually beneficial safety of the seas and mutually beneficial prospect of tower folks in your lands, we took out an entire pirate armada that was hiding that could have contested the entirety of Mayene's Navy." sort of message.

Why is it always the black and white "we were wrong I'm sorry" or "contact us in private to arrange a deal" sort of thing?
There are other options, and most (well, a good number anyway) are mature enough to separate some IC stand off-ish and harsh language from OOC anger when it comes to those sort of things, and also keeping the backroom deals alive and well if it must.

I will once again defer to the civil watch's block of platinum messages to the Kandori Bandit Guild and the delightful back and forth (though sadly a conclusion was not reached in the ToL post escalation) as what interesting and in the right way looks like.

[Cera]

... but another example I have would be for Cera.
One day, she was a tower character, then for like a week, she wasn't (and I assumed that she was but just incog), and then after the ToD post where she became a known DF/DL... I learned that she was kicked out for getting caught with killing an innocent (unsure if this was a trophy check or more true-to-expectations IC sleuthing...), but the way the tower was very hush hush about it until after the cat was out of the bag certainly didn't help the matter and missed a lot of what could have been fun RP (until the attack happened..

Probably not a good idea to quote something as an example of which you have no first-hand knowledge for

[Roberto]

I think most people know that I do enjoy RP, especially on Rob. I have written stories, been rping a Malkieri for over a decade, incorporated his whole ten year story into my rooms, have taken part in multiple huge story lines on the mud, and have been rping with the Tower as well many others in a smaller scale too, outed multiple DF/MCs in character, been before the hall twice, had red ruby taint removed in the tower, have taught multiple classes in the tower, and I could go on and on about the RP i have done.

As of last month I believe I had 12 rpqs. This is already coupled by the fact that Thiefbane is almost always skipped over in regards to "imm directed world stories" and other big world changes. (the whole war period comes to mind) I go out of my way to try to get myself involved in such things, but find that unless im constantly reminding people to include me they will go forward and without me because the truth is im not vital to moving the story forward.

Even recent decision I made IC/RP related had negative reprecussions, the latest I can think of is when I was asked to protect the tower from when CoL was camping in there attempting to stab novices/accepted, and though they had valid warrants and were actively committing a crime in Tar Valon I got hit with a warrant for like 4 months from CoL.

So as someone who enjoys tries to combine RP and PK in his character, there seems to be really a minimal benefit for doing so. It usually leads to being saddled with limitations while having almost no real benefit. I can see why others wouldnt be as intereted in mainting their character/clan RP consistantly.

Man, what does a guy have to do to get his clan mount.

Also, I know there is a reason as to why it was done... but it costs me qps to wear my RP gear now. I am assuming its the same everywhere. Costing qps just to be able to wear your clan gear even on exchange does not help the whole RP world.

[Elysia]

but another example I have would be for Cera.
One day, she was a tower character, then for like a week, she wasn't (and I assumed that she was but just incog), and then after the ToD post where she became a known DF/DL... I learned that she was kicked out for getting caught with killing an innocent (unsure if this was a trophy check or more true-to-expectations IC sleuthing...), but the way the tower was very hush hush about it until after the cat was out of the bag certainly didn't help the matter and missed a lot of what could have been fun RP (until the attack happened..

There are different RP standards for darkfriends, because they are RPing darkfriends. E.g. finding a dead inno on a trophy of a darkfriend wouldn't be something imms act on, because it's part of being a darkfriend. That said, I for the life of me can't remember what happened surrounding Cera, I'm just commenting in general on darkfriends, innos and trophies. There were some darkfriends with very interesting trophies.

[Tomos]

... but another example I have would be for Cera.
One day, she was a tower character, then for like a week, she wasn't (and I assumed that she was but just incog), and then after the ToD post where she became a known DF/DL... I learned that she was kicked out for getting caught with killing an innocent (unsure if this was a trophy check or more true-to-expectations IC sleuthing...), but the way the tower was very hush hush about it until after the cat was out of the bag certainly didn't help the matter and missed a lot of what could have been fun RP (until the attack happened..

Probably not a good idea to quote something as an example of which you have no first-hand knowledge for

How about you enlighten us instead of making what reads as a passive aggressive post?

[Draz]

My feeling was Cera is smart enough not to whine or cause issues, or double down on their mistakes.

So rather than bitching at imms in the same repetetive cycle for months and years they went off and played another character.

Btw I've grouped with CoL my entire tower career, only against shadowspawn, and I was explicitly advised gaidin and aes sedai can make (and if grilled over it defend) that choice, but that we couldn't do it with accepted grouped because they didn't have that choice.
Being me, I did query life or death door situations and the answer to that was that it should be obvious I could make that decision in that case. (This would be being in a door knowing we are about to get hit, not hitting a group in a door



Re the repeat offender stuff. Sigh.

Cityheads were being farmed for years before I did, and more effectively with less risk.

Jafar was hit by dozens of groups, the keys really did not make a difference to hitting the smob. They definitely made a difference to locking out smash groups... who then farmed and kept keys.

EB groups and players knew how to kill over 10 years ago. Us learning how to kill it was an exercise in figuring out the puzzle. One of my fav moments on this game was a group of people who don't like me specifically excluding me from a hit..and watching them do literally the exact things to fail the hit.. and all die. The only thing they needed to do was ask how.

Cityheads were farmed for years with projectiles (not by me, though I considered it for Kai who had a reason and setups to suit).

Cityheads have been farmed for years by solo and duo channies.

Rahien was being farmed, and many other smobs with incin, for which i literally discussed how hard it was with imms in the firetrucking room with me, and how it had clearly been designed with this avenue, before being punished for hitting it.

People have been soloing and duoing Taim for years. (I can't be fucked, but can do it).

Leading an r7 and r8 mob into pk I literally showed the calcs that the r7 damage didnt affect the kill. Literally showed the log of losing relenas mob prior,.. and losing relena.. who i thought was leading the r7...2-3 rooms prior to that in a stacked spam (TV to 6W in under 20-30 seconds..)

Countless times of ungrouping eqd mobs because pk started and I couldn't go to it with two mobs

Being told that i will be declanned if I use bonuses from sedai being online if she wasnt there... and then being declanned for running intereference for someone..without using bonuses...

Being punished across all alts, for pk where noone died, where the DS didn't tell me mob was poisoning them, where i provided the firetrucking log of looking at the mob in ccs, seeing it had gleamer wielded, and immediately ran mob to the room where its medium blade was sitting on the ground, and removed the gleamer and gave it weapon... because there was no proof that I wasnt lying..

Being decouncilled and docked; after a 2 month amazing engaging and fun clanning process, where every single player who had posted on forums during that process had already said yes to clanning the players in question, because I didnt post the vote.
Noone clanned that clan since. Despite multiple requests. That side went from an active resurgence to dead.

Being docked 100qp for someone I had mailed and asked imms every day to warrant for two weeks for attempting to murder the char, and turning their head in. The 10x was reverted by Austin as he had the messages and counted it as a self report.

Actual bugs I exploited.

Being angry and told I would never be able to be chosen on shzrei, andddddddd couldn't stab anymore. Used mobs to kill a non clan head. Defade.

Being angry about one of those other punishments. Used an exploit for several thousand tps. Tokens from it confiscated.

Neither was hidden. Didn't try to do sneaky dung on different IPs. Was just upset.

[Draz]

Oh i also sat in a door once with a close trigger for when Shei ported on me.

And regularly organise trades on discord

[Draz]

And have happily rolled a second stab on people my entire damned stab career, because I fully believe that if someone lets a timer run out on them they're already not paying attention or taking risks.

And have intentionally murdered Castien

I don't think I've ever intentionally and knowingly lied to anyone on this game.

[reil]

I think we're overstating how willing players are to hold each other accountable and how able they are to know that accountability check needs to even happen. The flip side of that is how players take to being held accountable. There are some players that take the punishment for things on the chin and move past it and there are some players who need to litigate every little thing because their woe cannot possibly be a result of their own decision-making. The latter are way more common and if you want to repeatedly deal with them as a player, good luck to ya. The third type simply opts out of playing if there's any accountability to be had, as has been mentioned a couple of times.

Re: Tower and RP - Tower has a lot of people that do a good job or at least try and hold each other accountable. They also have a ton of people that do no such thing and basically try to subvert RP in absolutely nonsensical ways and say absolutely nonsensical things in the process. It's a big clan and a mixed bag.

[Thore]

Draz, man, you just listed 15 things that are all basically exploits or things that at least after doing 2-3 of them you'd think you could self identify as exploits. And the justification of many is because others were doing them it makes it OK? I hope you can see how obviously wrong that is, but I don't think you can because after 15 of them you're still deflecting blame. And 15 in a row, many/most which result in some kind of repercussion, is literally the definition of repeat offender.

I had started writing a longer post about this topic, but scratched it because I ran out of time. One part of it though, included what Rob mentioned, which is incentive. There is really not much tangible incentive to roleplaying. Sure, the folks who already like to roleplay will enjoy the rewards of a deeper atmosphere, and perhaps the roleplay-based bonuses. But for the rest of the players, who want loot, PK and other tangible bonuses, those rewards are next to useless. So the incentive is minimal.

A mob raid tied to a story line that comes with the lead mob loading some goodies - that is one way to get those kinds of people engaged with roleplay. But getting people who don't typically want to roleplay to want to roleplay... Good luck with that, it will be a forever problem just like getting some of the heaviest RPs to want to PK.