Change to Master Damage

[isabel]

Thore stop trying to overtake me trying to overtake Rig trying to overtake Razhak trying to overtake Elysia on # of forum posts, dammit.

PS - I also play Jestin. Maybe.

[Ominas]

But as far as the shirt, I couldn't find the post, but I thought the stated reasoning was higher DB to help counter mounted bash. A DL is MUCH more likely to encounter mounted/master/warrior bashers than LS FCs, especially mounted master bonded gaidin, which are in nearly every pk, and if I remember right from the quick numbers I checked, 5 db is an improvement for sure, but doesn't fully outweigh mounted bash.

It was a stupid justification then too. They're not MUCH more likely to encounter mounted/master/warrior bashers than LS. You named three things and DS typically has more in any given situation (masters and warriors) and there are plenty of mounted DS/SS characters that they fight especially after free-remort month.

Also, what are you comparing when you say it doesn't "fully outweigh" mounted bash? Trollocs quaffing teas to get 21 strength also close (and very slightly exceed) the gap just on the basis of OB -> bash % on the riding bash bonus on everything except bash from master warders.

DLs wearing those shirts effectively have 19 dex relative to every other dodge character and don't really give up all the things (or anything) you'd think would justify that.

Also, jesus christ, Thore.

Always good when Tek posts and drops some knowledge. Thanks for chiming in. I wasn’t aware of the potential for 21 str. I thought that was stopped. Interesting stuff. Good post

[Dovain]

But as far as the shirt, I couldn't find the post, but I thought the stated reasoning was higher DB to help counter mounted bash. A DL is MUCH more likely to encounter mounted/master/warrior bashers than LS FCs, especially mounted master bonded gaidin, which are in nearly every pk, and if I remember right from the quick numbers I checked, 5 db is an improvement for sure, but doesn't fully outweigh mounted bash.

It was a stupid justification then too. They're not MUCH more likely to encounter mounted/master/warrior bashers than LS. You named three things and DS typically has more in any given situation (masters and warriors) and there are plenty of mounted DS/SS characters that they fight especially after free-remort month.

Also, what are you comparing when you say it doesn't "fully outweigh" mounted bash? Trollocs quaffing teas to get 21 strength also close (and very slightly exceed) the gap just on the basis of OB -> bash % on the riding bash bonus on everything except bash from master warders.

DLs wearing those shirts effectively have 19 dex relative to every other dodge character and don't really give up all the things (or anything) you'd think would justify that.

Also, jesus christ, Thore.

Just to clarify where my numebrs were coming from:

Per the bash calculator, with the same stats, same full abs kit with full parry trinks, 99% weapon and bash pracs, assuming a 21 strength master brave offensive trolloc, and a 19 strength master brave offensive riding (lvl 6 ride) human, the human will bash the same DB approximately 2% better. Level 7 ride improves that by another % or so. If you're arguing that there are more fades than human masters, that's just ridiculous IMO. Maybe my phrasing was wrong, since I was counting the mounted/master/warrior as one combined thing, not 3 separate things. The important part being mounted bash.

If I add 5 DB due to the DL shirt to the calculation, since I just ran the numbers, the DL will get bashed at most approximately 3% less vs. the mounted master human than the similar human with no extra 5 DB would by a 21 strength trolloc.

I didn't include the difference for warriors with the additional 5 OB since those are on both sides, and I didn't include the difference for bonded gaidin. Bonded gaidin are in a whole other class when it comes to bash landing, and would bash the DL with the 5 extra DB at something like 5-6% higher rate than a normal mounted master human would bash regular DB. I also don't want it to sound like I'm saying the extra 5 DB is needed just to counter gaidin. Just throwing the numbers out there for comparison.

[Dovain]

Always good when Tek posts and drops some knowledge. Thanks for chiming in. I wasn’t aware of the potential for 21 str. I thought that was stopped. Interesting stuff. Good post

Trolloc warriors can stat 21 strength is bearish at the cost of 17 max con and practically human moves. Other trolloc warriors can quaff strength teas to hit 21 strength.

Trolloc hunters I believe max out at 20 strength. (at least statting a bearish, hunters are limited to 20 str. please correct me if I'm wrong about hunters maxing out at 20 str with a tea)

[Aureus]

But as far as the shirt, I couldn't find the post, but I thought the stated reasoning was higher DB to help counter mounted bash. A DL is MUCH more likely to encounter mounted/master/warrior bashers than LS FCs, especially mounted master bonded gaidin, which are in nearly every pk, and if I remember right from the quick numbers I checked, 5 db is an improvement for sure, but doesn't fully outweigh mounted bash.

It was a stupid justification then too. They're not MUCH more likely to encounter mounted/master/warrior bashers than LS. You named three things and DS typically has more in any given situation (masters and warriors) and there are plenty of mounted DS/SS characters that they fight especially after free-remort month.

Also, what are you comparing when you say it doesn't "fully outweigh" mounted bash? Trollocs quaffing teas to get 21 strength also close (and very slightly exceed) the gap just on the basis of OB -> bash % on the riding bash bonus on everything except bash from master warders.

DLs wearing those shirts effectively have 19 dex relative to every other dodge character and don't really give up all the things (or anything) you'd think would justify that.

Also, jesus christ, Thore.

Here are the relative numbers. For reference, currently 21 str ~= riding, but as stat inflation creeps up overall Riding becomes slightly better than 21 str. Stat compression helped here. (This assumes a 16/18/15 channeler with 99 dodge and full gear, level 5 ride.)

Code: Select all

+-------------------------+-----+-----+----------+--------+---------+---------+---------+---------------+------+--------+-----------+-----------+------------------+-----------+-------------+
| Scenario                | Str | Con | Weapon % | Bash % | Master? | Race    | Ride    | Weapon        | Gear | Trinks | Basher OB | Basher PB | Basher Weapon Wt | Victim DB | Bash Chance |
+-------------------------+-----+-----+----------+--------+---------+---------+---------+---------------+------+--------+-----------+-----------+------------------+-----------+-------------+
| LS vs DL (no shirt)     |  19 |  19 |       99 |     99 | Yes     | Human   | Level 7 | Hooked Swords | Abs  | Parry  |       193 |        21 |             17.5 |       146 |          45 |
+-------------------------+-----+-----+----------+--------+---------+---------+---------+---------------+------+--------+-----------+-----------+------------------+-----------+-------------+
| Troll vs Channie        |  19 |  19 |       99 |     99 | Yes     | Trolloc | No      | Hooked Swords | Abs  | Parry  |       186 |        21 |             17.5 |       146 |          32 |
+-------------------------+-----+-----+----------+--------+---------+---------+---------+---------------+------+--------+-----------+-----------+------------------+-----------+-------------+
| 20 Str Troll vs Channie |  20 |  19 |       99 |     99 | Yes     | Trolloc | No      | Hooked Swords | Abs  | Parry  |       191 |        21 |             17.5 |       146 |          38 |
+-------------------------+-----+-----+----------+--------+---------+---------+---------+---------------+------+--------+-----------+-----------+------------------+-----------+-------------+
| 21 Str Troll vs Channie |  21 |  19 |       99 |     99 | Yes     | Trolloc | No      | Hooked Swords | Abs  | Parry  |       197 |        21 |             17.5 |       146 |          45 |
+-------------------------+-----+-----+----------+--------+---------+---------+---------+---------------+------+--------+-----------+-----------+------------------+-----------+-------------+
| LS vs DL (shirt)        |  19 |  19 |       99 |     99 | Yes     | Human   | Level 7 | Hooked Swords | Abs  | Parry  |       193 |        21 |             17.5 |       150 |          39 |
+-------------------------+-----+-----+----------+--------+---------+---------+---------+---------------+------+--------+-----------+-----------+------------------+-----------+-------------+

So a DL shirt is ~= to a LS channeler fighting a 20 str trolloc. Slightly worse, actually.

There are lots of other variables you can throw in (fades and warders and damane, oh my!), but this sort of comparison was the basis for the selection.

[Kryyg]

I don’t think anyone argues that in a small selection of PK, dreadlords will get bashed 4% more. They have plenty of bonuses to make that a paltry downside. I.e. extra sps to be permanently WVD before every fight and still have the sps of a normal channeler. That bash won’t do much damage.

Anyways. Let’s all redouble our efforts on fixing lag. And instead of downing damage we should have upped everyone to master damage and just remove that as a bonus. Like my point above, masters OB and PB is plenty of bonus on its own. The game needs to move faster less damage is not the way, especially with half tics implemented many years ago. Too much HP regen and we just lowered damage.

[Thore]

Thore, don't forget to breathe.

Hey, I was taking a long bathroom break and had a few minutes. Voice to text is pretty nice. And the forum is not a great place for discussion when you've been to busy to respond that a thread that you're interested in. Is that what Discord's for? Screw that... Skip my posts if you don't want to read them, no one's making anyone read anything here.

I will say, 5 to 10 years ago what are the chances this thread has already been locked? Progress IMO.

[Thore]

Thore, don't forget to breathe.

Sounds like he might be too lazy to.

This man gets it man. Let's see if Google can pronounce his name, the heed. Nope, fail. How about Vampa? Hey that one was good. Anyway vahid is good people's.

[Thore]

Thore stop trying to overtake me trying to overtake Rig trying to overtake Razhak trying to overtake Elysia on # of forum posts, dammit.

PS - I also play Jestin. Maybe.

S***. I'm doing it again. Three posts. And you just broke my brain. Don't think I can continue...

[Thore]

But as far as the shirt, I couldn't find the post, but I thought the stated reasoning was higher DB to help counter mounted bash. A DL is MUCH more likely to encounter mounted/master/warrior bashers than LS FCs, especially mounted master bonded gaidin, which are in nearly every pk, and if I remember right from the quick numbers I checked, 5 db is an improvement for sure, but doesn't fully outweigh mounted bash.

It was a stupid justification then too. They're not MUCH more likely to encounter mounted/master/warrior bashers than LS. You named three things and DS typically has more in any given situation (masters and warriors) and there are plenty of mounted DS/SS characters that they fight especially after free-remort month.

Also, what are you comparing when you say it doesn't "fully outweigh" mounted bash? Trollocs quaffing teas to get 21 strength also close (and very slightly exceed) the gap just on the basis of OB -> bash % on the riding bash bonus on everything except bash from master warders.

DLs wearing those shirts effectively have 19 dex relative to every other dodge character and don't really give up all the things (or anything) you'd think would justify that.

Also, jesus christ, Thore.

Just to clarify where my numebrs were coming from:

Per the bash calculator, with the same stats, same full abs kit with full parry trinks, 99% weapon and bash pracs, assuming a 21 strength master brave offensive trolloc, and a 19 strength master brave offensive riding (lvl 6 ride) human, the human will bash the same DB approximately 2% better. Level 7 ride improves that by another % or so. If you're arguing that there are more fades than human masters, that's just ridiculous IMO. Maybe my phrasing was wrong, since I was counting the mounted/master/warrior as one combined thing, not 3 separate things. The important part being mounted bash.

If I add 5 DB due to the DL shirt to the calculation, since I just ran the numbers, the DL will get bashed at most approximately 3% less vs. the mounted master human than the similar human with no extra 5 DB would by a 21 strength trolloc.

I didn't include the difference for warriors with the additional 5 OB since those are on both sides, and I didn't include the difference for bonded gaidin. Bonded gaidin are in a whole other class when it comes to bash landing, and would bash the DL with the 5 extra DB at something like 5-6% higher rate than a normal mounted master human would bash regular DB. I also don't want it to sound like I'm saying the extra 5 DB is needed just to counter gaidin. Just throwing the numbers out there for comparison.

Nope, still breathing I think. Sounds like numbers are good. I like it. How about we assume that this is in the era of berserk warrior attack bonus since that was only taken away not too long ago and there were plenty of complaints about this before then? Now who is easier to play, the DL, or, let's say, the bonded Gaidin? 1v1, all things considered equal and both players are Zizek, who wins?