Maximum Stat Rolls

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Naleth
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Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:16 pm
Location: East Coast, USA

Maximum Stat Rolls

Post by Naleth » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:42 am

Have the imms ever said if there's a maximum cap to stats rolled at level 3?

I ask because, when I started playing back in the mid '90s, everyone "knew" 19 19 18 was impossible until someone did it. Even after that, they still "knew" 19 19 19 was impossible. They also "knew" you couldn't get a statsum higher than 87.

Now that I'm back, I've been taking a look at the wiki and was amazed at the info on the homelands page. To have each nation's base stats and modifier rates was a huge eye-opener. According to that page, it's theoretically possible to roll a 19 19 19 Borderlands Hunter (200,000:1) or a 92 statsum Illian Warrior (640,000:1). But just because the tables say its possible doesn't mean it can actually be rolled.

Testing whether these outcomes are possible would require hundreds of millions of failures to say with statistical confidence that it's impossible, and would STILL leave room that the tester was just unlucky. The only way to know for sure would be if someone had successfully rolled one or the imms confirmed a coded limit to the statting process (something like "if str=19 and dex=19, con=/=19" or whatever it would be in C).

So, has either of these happened? Is it possible to hit the jackpot and roll a 19 16 16 19 19 hunter, or have imms flat-out said it's impossible?

Aloisa
Posts: 968
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: Maximum Stat Rolls

Post by Aloisa » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:47 am

Someone else will explain it in more detail, but it is impossible to roll a 19 19 19. The code will reduce a stat to 18 if you roll three 19s.

Vaen
Posts: 198
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:20 pm

Re: Maximum Stat Rolls

Post by Vaen » Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:31 pm

I don't know whether or not that's true now, but it hasn't always been the case. There's a troll rogue who rolled 19 19 19 before superstats were super common and was downed manually to 18 19 19. There was a seanchan hunter who statted 19 19 19 around 2004/2005 and (to my knowledge) was never actually downed.

Itesh
Posts: 828
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2015 4:59 am

Re: Maximum Stat Rolls

Post by Itesh » Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:32 pm

It is true now that the code will not let you roll three 19s. Something gets dialled back, when it occurs.

Edit: Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that it's perfectly possible to roll three - or more - 19s, but your stats undergo a smallish battery of tests before they get to you and removing an overabundance of 19s is one of those.

Naleth
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:16 pm
Location: East Coast, USA

Re: Maximum Stat Rolls

Post by Naleth » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:27 pm

Thanks, Itesh. Looking at the numbers I've rolled so far, that's what I was starting to suspect, but it's nice to get confirmation without another 100k data points!

For anyone interested, I've been statting an Altaran Warrior. If you don't care what mentals you get, the odds of rolling 19 19 19 are 500:1.
I've recorded my stats for 732 tries so far, which isn't enough to prove anything but has let me infer the following:

When a stat is rolled, any possible modifier (+4 to -4) is applied based on the homeland's modifier table. This could temporarily result in humans having greater than 19 values. (e.g. Altaran Warrior gets base 14 str + 2 warrior bonus = 16 modified base. Rolling a +4 would temporarily grant 20 str.) After the modifier is applied, the stat is checked and reduced to any relevant maximum (e.g 19 max for humans).
This is strongly implied by my results. I can't actually tell what modifier I rolled, but my data does show I receive 19 str almost exactly 2x as often as 19 dex or con (which only reach 19 on a perfect +4 roll).
It also seems that stats are rolled in order: Str first, followed by Int, Wil, Dex, and Con. When Con is rolled, it gets treated just like every other stat but, during the check, an additional restriction is added: if Str and Dex were both 19, Con is reduced to 18.

My sample is way to small to confirm this, but the initial numbers do support it. Based on the modifiers I've observed (slightly higher than the wiki's), I would expect to have rolled three 19 19 19 warriors and three 19 19 18 warriors. Instead, I've rolled zero 19 19 19's and six 19 19 18's.

In conclusion, I enjoy wasting my time and perfect physicals are impossible. Thank you.

P.S. - If you don't mind, Itesh, can you tell me if there are similar checks for statsums before I spend the next 5-10 years statting characters to statisfy my curiosity? :)

Frey
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:58 pm

Re: Maximum Stat Rolls

Post by Frey » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:31 pm

I don't know why, but I found this all fascinating.

Thanks Naleth!

Aloisa
Posts: 968
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: Maximum Stat Rolls

Post by Aloisa » Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:21 pm

I think Zarth has a good understanding of statting, too.

Eol
Posts: 704
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:34 pm

Re: Maximum Stat Rolls

Post by Eol » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:36 pm

I would love to see a written explanation of the prior female status malus. Elysia explained it once and I didn't write it down. If I understood correctly - there wasn't a female status malus. There was a male stat advantage. They simply removed the advantage and tada - statting mostly sucks now for hunters...

The thing that is interesting to me is I never recall rolling intelligent warriors/hunters back in the day. I almost wondered if the old coding in some way moved points from int/wil to physicals which made it much likelier you'd get a playable physical character because you can hit some variations of 18+ 10 10 18+ 18+ on a lower total stat count if the points are more apportioned to physicals than mentals. If you are statting a hunter and most of the stats fall in a low physical total and the int/wil are falling repeatedly in the 13-15 range you'll need an enormous total to ever get anything playable. Or tell me how I"m wrong! That's how I learn.

Naleth
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Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:16 pm
Location: East Coast, USA

Re: Maximum Stat Rolls

Post by Naleth » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:35 pm

Low mental hunters seems more to do with homeland choice rather than complex coding designed to shift numbers around. This seems especially true since, back in the day, we didn't know what each homeland's base stats were. Everyone knew Illian gave high mentals for channies, but people just didn't seemed to care whether their warrior or hunter had good int or wil.

Looking at the info we have now (check out the wiki's homeland page if you haven't already), we can see that the highest mentals come from Cairhein, Ghealdan, Illian, and Tear. Honestly, how often did people stat fighters from these homelands? Not often, which would explain why high mental hunters weren't a thing. Statting from homelands that offer higher physicals got usable results more often, so that's what people went with.

Those other homelands tend to have a base value of 11-12. Since the most common modifier is +0 (seriously, check out the wiki; it's amazing), that's what people typically wound up with when statting. Values of 15-16 ARE possible for every human homeland, but the odds of getting good physicals AND good mentals are rare. Since most players prioritize physical stats for fighter-type characters, it's not surprising that most of them wound up with high physicals and low mentals.

Plus, anyone who rolled low physicals and high mentals probably let loose a few choice socials (mutter, curse, roll, and puke are my most used when statting, btw) before typing 'restat.' Even worse, remember the days when restatting meant deleveling from 5 to 1, quitting for 3 days, then coming back to re-create the character? *cringe* It's no wonder so many people settled for good physicals and crap mentals. When people lucked out and got them both, it naturally pushed their stat total higher than the average player.

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