Why are people still playing trolloc rogues?

... tales of great battles, stealthy adversaries and improving your PK skills. Careful though, no whining!
Vannor
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:05 pm

Re: Why are people still playing trolloc rogues?

Post by Vannor » Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:23 pm

Crusunte wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:10 pm
Vannor wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:58 pm
It's a little weird so much unsolicited advice flying around when it wasn't asked for.
gok wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:40 pm
Not sure what else I could have done here
Is it actually weird that people are responding to this part of Gok's post immediately after Aloysius' posts? Glad he figured it out though. :)
So weird! Just a little though

Feneon
Posts: 1748
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:02 pm

Re: Why are people still playing trolloc rogues?

Post by Feneon » Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:56 pm

I write this not because this thread has been particularly toxic but because this a regularly reoccurring event that impacts players and I'm talking about the back-and-forth between two groups of players who often stand opposed.

This topic is not controversial as a concept. It is accepted by the majority of players that the experience of fighting against or as a rogue apart from landing a stab is generally negative. Nor should this be contentious, in Aloysius's first log you see three players echoing the sentiment. One more would likely have said something, but they had already been killed after a failed stab attempt and then a land in the same room. If a player reads a post that references themselves such as this and feels personally attacked it is their right to complain and refer it to Staff.

Talking about PK and what makes a healthy game environment is good. Defaulting to protecting your allies or taking offense where it isn't is bad. If you cannot succeed at objectively reading words and then writing something negative about a character of a player (who either will or their friends will take it personally) then you should not engage.

The continued act of deferring into tribal warfare over discourse and reacting to perceived micro-aggression has got to stop. Both of your groups make the atmosphere on this game worse through your actions. One makes it worse with active and aggressive direct feedback which is often hidden in condescension, most commonly found in Discord or on Forums and if on the game it is in veiled narrates that are clearly pejorative and targeted. The other makes it worse with indirect and passive collusion to try and reinforce whatever narrative is most relevant to the moment, which is most prevalent and visible on in-game communications and often seen through the active encouragement of opting out of playing with opponents that you do not like. Every other player online has to navigate an online world where the undertone and context because of the prowess of players involved, on both sides, is toxic.

No one wants to play a game where a post like this explodes into two pages in less than an hour because you're all fascinated with how [insert negative adjective or verb] the other side is.

We have actively moderated at times when it is prominently displayed, we've issued warnings, we've allowed it and watched it without commentary, here we're directly engaging it. You do not have to be nice to each other and you do not have to like each other. You are more than welcome to take these conversations to DMs or mails. It is likely that apart from the drama, the majority of players do not like or care about these competitions.

A reminder that is always helpful to keep top of mind:

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Gretchen
Posts: 522
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:00 pm

Re: Why are people still playing trolloc rogues?

Post by Gretchen » Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:06 pm

not a fan of trollocs stabers but i got to say gok is one of the better ones he takes risks and has died a good few time to me doing so hes a lot more fun to fight then most of em

Khaster
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:42 pm

Re: Why are people still playing trolloc rogues?

Post by Khaster » Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:10 pm

aloysius wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:55 pm
So just have some empathy and don't give people pk that you yourself wouldn't want to fight against.
Once more for the people in the back.

isabel
Posts: 1713
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:19 am

Re: Why are people still playing trolloc rogues?

Post by isabel » Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:03 pm

I only read the first two posts and i don't play rogues but i have advice for stabbers!

Use mobs to break combo def :)))))

isabel
Posts: 1713
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:19 am

Re: Why are people still playing trolloc rogues?

Post by isabel » Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:55 am

On a side note now that i read the thread..some people obviously enjoy playing rhe setup and playstyle and we are all very different people. The world would be a boring place if everyone was the same. It's a credit to the game that it allows for different kinds of playstyles and personalities.

That said i really wish some switching options were possible because everything is a time sink. For instance i tried so hard to get a rogue character to remort whereas i love playing channelers and while many have remorted via rogues, I'm stuck with utter apathy.

And all this is cause for the philosophical realisation that rant and rage or suffer as much we dont change people's personalities or our own. We can only grow to be better versions of who we are, not become someone else.

So instead of expecting people to play like us we should ask instead - what might be fun ways of pking stabbers. For instance i had a ton of fun pking some of the mor sporting stabbers as an abser (in the zerk days, but same logic applies).

As Scrat says there is give and take and you play until you reach the critical point and then people either find some amazing move, or lose patience and suicide, or get bored and walk away - the last is sad because you spend time for nothing (not in terms of winning eq but the fun of winning).

Aloysius - come and play blitz chess vs me :) it's great strategy and fun

Naji
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:46 am

Re: Why are people still playing trolloc rogues?

Post by Naji » Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:00 am

When I'm playing a channie, you are making my PK less fun by bashing me, could you just show the kinda consideration you'd expect from others and not make my PK less fun?

Not sure that's a great argument really.

Prykor
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2022 8:56 pm

Re: Why are people still playing trolloc rogues?

Post by Prykor » Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:39 am

isabel wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:03 pm
I only read the first two posts and i don't play rogues but i have advice for stabbers!

Use mobs to break combo def :)))))
stabber: hurt/healthy
combo guy: beat

so the stabber at hurt/healthy just runs mobs and the guy in combo at beat/bloody is expected to chase him to hostile mobs for pk?


In larger (3+ v 3+) engagements, stabbers sort of fill a role to keep the other group on their toes (and additional managing of mvs) as they hit, chase, and regroup.... but in a 1v1 context it turns into a combination of needing the stabber to take risks or otherwise intentionally take damage to the point where the other side would even consider hitting the stabber at mobs.... and then if either side decides to flee and run away, well the combo guy isn't breaking the dodge guy's defense, and vice versa without a bash land/miss, so it ends up feeling like an odd stalemate where both sides are just getting low and inviting a gank squad to come in and clean up -- note that this is the "best case" scenario where both sides are willing to stay in the fight with a lot of bloody tracks all over the place.
The other sort of pk goes to flee stabbing... generally the bash timer vs stab timer to see if the stabber gets sat or the basher gets disengaged in time to eat a sitting stab. Very similar experience to fighting a full dodge FC 1v1, damage comes very quick and sudden on the side rolling a stab/wave, and the bash guy either needs to be zerk with some good luck on the RNG, or is taking damage to lure the other side to fight at mobs where a bash landing will deal similarly large amounts of damage (again, assumes that the other side is willing to take risks and fight at mobs).

I would say this critique applies to most non-bash set ups, where stab is one of several (though the most common) but fblades/kick or charge/kick set ups end up with similarly un-fun sorts of pk in a 1v1 context but fit a role in group play -- charge h.rogue when the rogue is trying to stab the FC that is fleeing off and back to be disengaged to freely weave on target. Though the "h.target" allowing non-hidden targets (should only do this at lvl7/98% notice imho) makes this a bit too easy for the channelers, but I digress.

isabel
Posts: 1713
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:19 am

Re: Why are people still playing trolloc rogues?

Post by isabel » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:47 pm

Taking out the flee stab stuff which to my mind isn't pk, just gimmicks that people should either spam for if they have the have the link or leave id they don't, the rest of what you said is applicable to most of 1v1s isn't it? This bit:

"n a 1v1 context it turns into a combination of needing the stabber to take risks or otherwise intentionally take damage to the point where the other side would even consider hitting the stabber at mobs."

Every setup, everything is about creating some incentive. The only other scenario is when there is enough of damage/skill/experience/setup difference to straight up power through and chase them down. But with soemthing like a non master any setup vs non master any setup non channeler fights it is about give and take.

Take the example of a bash vs bash. Let's say one person bashes consistently better (from timing and practice, not stupid bash timer :p) then they may end up scr vs batt or high wounded vs low batt. At that point the high wounded has to intentionally take damage at mobs to even it out.. almost a penalty for bashing better. B

ut it's not a penalty for the single reason that now they get to decide whether the play continues or not. Guy sitting at mobs has to wait for them to hit or they may choose to leave.

In this beat vs hurt or whatever situation, the stabber had to let the basher bash him 2-3x, and then when he's even hps, go to mobs and use it to Whittle down combo guy hps, use automwimpy, watch fleelag etc.

There are so many rogues who fight all this well, they may try a stab early on but it's more like a hello in an interesting way. It's not how they actually fight a solo person who knows they are there.

Zugdak
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:12 pm

Re: Why are people still playing trolloc rogues?

Post by Zugdak » Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:39 pm

I wish they would remove or somehow control disengage bash stab, insta-death shouldn’t be the punishment for missing a bash

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