The Ultimate Betrayal.... (Is full log up until I died)

... tales of great battles, stealthy adversaries and improving your PK skills. Careful though, no whining!
Ominas
Posts: 459
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:07 am

Re: The Ultimate Betrayal.... (Is full log up until I died)

Post by Ominas » Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:26 am

isabel wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:28 am
I guess I don't see the either/or logic of this. Why can't it be eldrenia's day AND lisennet's reveal? We don't have finite quantities of congratulations or bonuses to hand out.

I'm at a loss to understand the mindset in which a double celebration is a bad thing. Like if Christmas and hanukkah are around the same time does it make either less ? Or does it actually bring more people together?
You’re actually mostly right. You’re just missing a little bit of what myself and a few others are trying to express.

There is no either/or. It absolutely is congratulations to them both. I am happy for each players achievement.

To use your own example of Christmas and Hanukkah, each holiday is unique and special in its own way. What makes them special is the integral part they play societally (in some ways and places) as well as the traditions that revolve around them. There are people that combine them. Which is wonderful. But it is done so respectfully and equally. But imagine if whoever organized the combination decided that there would be no dreidel spinning because they were short on time or whatever. That cheapens the experience and makes it less special for one side. (Please excuse my ignorance if I’ve overestimated the importance of the dreidel or misrepresented anything. I am not overly familiar with religious holidays.)

That’s a stretch. But you get my point. Each person deserved a unique experience that was special for them. For Eldrenia it could be fairly debated and said, that the experience that she deserved that would have been special, was taken from her for the sake of another.

In this case the players themselves aren’t really part of the equation, as far as the point of contention. The way the quest was handled and executed is. The players did exactly what they were asked. But what was asked took away from the experience of the other which shifted the balance and created a meaningless negative experience, seemingly out of either convenience or thoughtlessness. Which again, is not the players fault.

Look, is this a huge deal? No. It’s really not. The game moves on and both players will be fine. But it is a mistake. My only point is the immortal side needs to be thoughtful about how these things will make players feel. Because those moments will have lasting consequences. If Eldrenia had 10 other masters, it is what it is, I’m sure she or others wouldn’t even notice. But for a first timer that’s an upsetting experience. It just shouldn’t have happened the way it did.

Chrissy gave a great alternative to how it could have worked. The quest ended north east of RK. It was meant to separate you from horses unless you could somehow set it up beforehand. It just didn’t have to be nor should it have been done the way it was. It should have been done more neutrally. Like I said it just seemed short sighted. And once it’s seen once, which it was, the quest is burned. Ds are like 30 rooms away.

Eol
Posts: 704
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:34 pm

Re: The Ultimate Betrayal.... (Is full log up until I died)

Post by Eol » Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:45 am

What Ominas said. It feels very 1 sided.

One person's quest was go into the heart of dark side's zone and kill a channeling dreadlord - to be maximally exposed.

Lisennet's quest was literally faciltated for the point of killing Eldrenia's group. And it wasn't even a quest in that she had a pass-fail accomplishment like Eldrenia did... It was a reveal that could be done at any time and in any picked moment.

Show me a quest where anything resembling the same courtesy would ever have been shown to Eldrenia.

Do you think before leaving for her quest the Imms would ever say - Eldrenia, be wary sister. Darkfriend notes have been found and we have reason to believe a darkfriend will be in your group. They may reveal themself during your quest.

They would never do that and probably they shouldn't, but consider. In that situation - imagine that Eldrenia's quest is simply to reveal that Lis is a darkfriend. And imagine instead only Lis dies. Would people after say - Eldrenia's quest was designed to rob Lis's moment. Probably. It would feel 1 sided and set-up which is how this log feels.

That said - we wouldn't be having this thread if the humans had won. It still feels slightly wrong.

langois
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:53 pm

Re: The Ultimate Betrayal.... (Is full log up until I died)

Post by langois » Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:54 am

Her quest might have been too hard but I loved the reveal. It’s memorable. Long after hurt feelings have become unhurt people will remember this. Especially if Lisenett manages to DL.

You’ve got multiple Sedai and at least one warder present. People didn’t keep their heads and that’s not Lisenetts fault or the imm who designed the quest.

1. Lis got off multiple fireballs. Really people this is a person trying to become a Sedai master and her and her entire group couldn’t change course fast enough to flamestrike
2. No off call and regroup point. Why wasn’t a warder taking charge and rallying everyone to get off the DL and onto the PC?
3. You didn’t make an effort to hide your horses. I stood one room away on my troll and meleed them all dead. Did the death cries not alert you at all that something was going down?
4. Keep your head and pay attention to what’s happening. You guys kept a Strength weave on her this entire time.


Eldrenia failed 5 times so yeah the quest was unreasonably hard. However the reveal should have ended with Lisenett dying to many weaves not pure chaos. I haven’t seen anyone really admit that the group made mistake after mistake.

The DL died, you got ranked for your efforts. It’s all good. Stop feeling so hard done by

isabel
Posts: 1713
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:19 am

Re: The Ultimate Betrayal.... (Is full log up until I died)

Post by isabel » Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:29 pm

Yeah I think two things:

1) Imagine a Vader convention and a Skywalker one and the moderators have it planned so they interface in some way. We can have player quest interface just with mobs- in this case we had it interface with other players. That can be so exciting - Isabel's quest takes her to the Blight where Callesa's master quest is to decipher some trolloc runes where Ominas' master quest is to save an Aes Sedai and a Borderguard. It makes us all part of the story. If Eldrenia thinks that the imms or readers weren't rooting for her that's false. Nobody wants to give her a hard time or for her hard work not to pay off. If that had been the case then they would not consider that quest completed since LS didn't really win that. The imm literally set it up so that Eldrenia -won- her specific quest.

2) Fairness and one-sided-ness, the imm again speificlaly said that they expected Lisennet to die there. I think what we are seeing is that the weaker pk group composition lost there. I don't kow Corvin and Astolfo but have not really seen them in pk. I know Relena pks but again, have not seen Relena or Penzei lead pk. Now the question is - why was Eldrenia's group the way it was? It's a reflection of her play history. Had it been Lisette's group she would ask the people -she's- friends with, which are usually PKers. Had it been Ominas, he'd probably have a mix of pkers and non-pkers, with explicit instructions for what to do etc in case of DS/surprises.

A more experienced PK group may easily have won this. Compare now weith some fidddly complicated smob takedown that Dixon had that would have been a caekwalk for someone like Arston. Everybody has their strength areas on the game, and in this case Eldrenia's group wasn't equiped to react quickly. It's expected that it may end in mass suicide if you try to do justice or a master quest without a weir or castien in your group in case things get hairy (not just because castien sheds hair).

if you want the easiest way to hack literally any smob - take arston
if you want to win even if 12 DS suddenly show up - take trik
if you want to destroy all adn everything that shows up without anyone dying even if it takes 6 real life hours - take draz
if you want to have a lot of fun even if everyone will die because maybe you'll pull off a spectacular win - take castien or davor
if you want someone to hold the flank while literally hand holding everyone to safety - take ominas
if you want someone to try to hold the flank so the rest can get away but actually die too soon to be of use - take isabel
if you want somoene who refuses to go 1n malk but will patiently sit in fd and run locates or hold weaves for you even for 2 hours - take ??

..and so on

what is cool about all this is what you actually DO on the game will determine who may go along with you. Kind of like a personalised journey of 1-2 years where your allies (withtheir specific skills/traits - loyalty, patience, smob sklls, pk skills, etc) depend on what steps you take. spend a lot oftime healing in FD etc, and maybe ltos of pkers will show up; maybe yhou smob a lot, so you have smob experts with you, etc.

anyway i dont know the specifics of the quest, i'm just going by what people are saying that it wasn't that it was set up for you to fail even the pk bit.

Vannor
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:05 pm

Re: The Ultimate Betrayal.... (Is full log up until I died)

Post by Vannor » Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:01 pm

It seems if they'd turned around and managed to kill Lisennet during the reveal (which was literally what Lisennet was expecting to happen if the reveal happened this way), this thread would look a whole lot different.

I'm sure that if the imm was able to be around when it occured it would've also looked a whole lot different.

I can sympathize with doing alot of work to figure out the quest, getting stopped a bunch of times and then on the final run ultimately dying feeling less than spectacular.

Overall though knowing that Eld wanted a big deal quest, then an imm taking time to implement something complex and then even having another players major IC moment integrated into her master quest for extra flavour. It delivers.

It's unique and likely won't ever able to be replicated by having a known reveal as part of the quest. LS just got routed for a variety of reasons and that's what sucks for them, not the quest itself

Auriona
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:18 pm

Re: The Ultimate Betrayal.... (Is full log up until I died)

Post by Auriona » Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:38 pm

Congrats on mastering and your persistence, and props to Lis for the epic reveal, eye rolls for the 1.tower targeting. I think this is really excellent and possibly the most creative thing that’s happened in game for a long time, so props to Aureus as well. A lot of stuff that might have been noticed and responded to immediately by a more experienced and PvP-oriented group really does make the difference here.

Eldrenia
Posts: 251
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:42 am

Re: The Ultimate Betrayal.... (Is full log up until I died)

Post by Eldrenia » Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:03 pm

isabel wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:25 am

The imm has been every kind of nice to not only give your character an eventful storyline that another player who did a crap ton of work for their character (with a crap ton more risk) agreed to be a part of - waited a ton of time to let soemthing like this play out - and you still got to master despite not demonstrating some amazing pk leadership here. Not seeing how this isn't every kind of win here for everyone involved.
I would like to know where in my quest that says I have to demonstrate "amazing pk leadership". I would like to see you have handled that better. By no means am I saying we executed that perfectly or without mistakes. Why don't you actually read the comments I and others were making and what I had an issue with before you chime in. I also "love" how you are implying that I haven't put a ton of time and work into getting Eldrenia to this point and that that quest that took us to TKD and then to north RK with no horses was less risking than a darkfriend reveal. You prove time and again that you just want to argue and start crap, well its annoying and I really wish you would just stop.

Elysia
Posts: 7908
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:29 pm

Re: The Ultimate Betrayal.... (Is full log up until I died)

Post by Elysia » Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:00 pm

Vannor wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:01 pm
It's unique and likely won't ever able to be replicated by having a known reveal as part of the quest. LS just got routed for a variety of reasons and that's what sucks for them, not the quest itself
As the one who started the most recent instance of this trend with Kalia's reveal during the Far Madding Saniago meeting...

Imms set up these things. We have a certain expectation on how they will most likely go. Sometimes, the unexpected happens and things don't happen as what would be the most likely outcome.

Alyse's master quest was to organize a festival. She choose Cairhien. Around that time, Faiz, who was CRS, and Sarras were ready to become Known. With some fireworks and mayhem. Unfortunately, Faiz couldn't make it and Sarras had something come up so they couldn't KERBOOM the festival.

Kalia's reveal went off without a hitch. Sarras and Faiz' fell flat. This one, the stars aligned and it ended in the unexpected way. This can happen when imms relinquish control of the situation and the outcome is undecided. It's all in the players' hands and that can go any direction.

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