Why would anyone want to pk you guys?

... tales of great battles, stealthy adversaries and improving your PK skills. Careful though, no whining!
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isabel
Posts: 1713
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:19 am

Re: Why would anyone want to pk you guys?

Post by isabel » Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:22 am

There is a counter I can think of but that would generate a similar thread I imagine


Ls leader enters into room with Ds group
Follower's charge starts
Second follower types k h.ghast
Ghast's stab starts
Second ds stabber timer starts
If more LS then charge on second stabber
DS melee guy aggros LS followers/group

LS leader hits k h.dark and gets on melee guy
DS melee guy waits (as planned to flee just before stab timer)
Ghast has 1-2 pulses to hit flee
Second LS follower hits flee

As soon as LS player has less flelag than Ghast then charge should complete.

Then everyone can feel happy with how amazing they are at timer calculations! Add same set of text for second third fourth and fifth stabber. Moral is have as many time chargers as there are time stabbers.

Dimmu
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:38 am

Re: Why would anyone want to pk you guys?

Post by Dimmu » Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:28 am

I mainly play a rogue on DS now after abs/bash was made obsolete in my jaded opinion. Sometimes I'll roll with gleamer/kick on my master hunter, or fencing/kick on my combo warrior. I really wanted to to master this character(and am fairly close), but I see no good reason to anymore.

Blame the changes, not the players!

Davor
Posts: 417
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:38 pm

Re: Why would anyone want to pk you guys?

Post by Davor » Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:15 am

erulak wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:08 am
I feel like you have to be a special kind of moron to think rogues actually do more damage than channelers (read: Davor is a very special moron).

But I'm with the non-morons like Langois and Fermin -- who speak from experience actually playing them recently, not mostly running around piercing and concurrently whining about piercing or completing timers to kill people and concurrently whining about completing timers to kill people. The issue isn't the damage output of stabbers (though the brief period of normalized melee and downed stab damage was better and didn't need to be changed) or defense, it's that the class is just much safer to play because of other things being adjusted without much adjustments down for stabbers besides the no-brainer of altering how master damage works -- and even then, we gave 50% of that back to *everybody*, which seems counterproductive.

- Rogues should not be exceeding 380+ hps. A cap of 350ish would be pretty reasonable.
- It should not be costing anyone moves to just move around fighting them. Free notice for all!
- Charge damage should be aligned with whatever damage stab is doing because it is a hell of a lot more difficult to get charges off than stabs, to the point it's almost ancillary to charge set ups. Berserk charge came with its own set of risks, which are barely worth it with it being downed.

Still can't get over this thread was started because a rank 6 Gaidin got meleed to death by two non-master rogues and that's somehow somebody else's fault. Someone tell Nasira to hurry up and shawl so he can bond!
Agree with Hps but it should be lower. Stab should still have a % cap and a 75% land rate. I know it’s your bread and butter class but it needs adjusting. Everyone on the thread is in agreement with that and yet we just start attacking each other. I don’t think anyone has some master agenda in this game anymore, at least I don’t. It’s a shitty class to play against and in genera ruins PK. Langois basically just said the only reason he plays it is for ez mode. I’m not sure why you are still so emotional on this game. We need Sneha back.

Jaster
Posts: 369
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:17 pm

Re: Why would anyone want to pk you guys?

Post by Jaster » Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:58 am

Part of the problem is that some of the people in easy mode aren’t even rogues. They just play stab. So capping rogue hps is really a plus to them 😏

Davor
Posts: 417
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:38 pm

Re: Why would anyone want to pk you guys?

Post by Davor » Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:20 am

Jaster wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:58 am
Part of the problem is that some of the people in easy mode aren’t even rogues. They just play stab. So capping rogue hps is really a plus to them 😏
Didn’t even think about all these wolf brothers and the overlap of players playing both. Maybe hunters should have to pay 3 pracs for rogue skills.

Stanislav
Posts: 81
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:52 pm

Re: Why would anyone want to pk you guys?

Post by Stanislav » Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:43 am

Let us imagine they've capped stab to the point it became inneffective/unplayable as they've done with ambush.
What do you think is going to happen next? Obviously and first of all, a huge drop in pbase same as it happened when they've 'fixed' warriors.
After that, people will migrate to other setups which allow relatively easy ways to get kills(channelers, dodge chargers). Most of these setups aren't avaliable on DS which will lead to diminishing numbers, weird setups, even worse pk in general.

The core of problem isn't stab being OP, but other setups being trash compared to stab. It is much harder to survive/get kills as a basher(especially abs one). High defenses, absurd mob support, low offensive potential of abs weapons, gimped moblead, no way to mitigate weave damage, lack of setup options for trollocs and so on. All these factors force people to play stab so they can get kills and survive while you get nothing/die as a combo/abser in general. It is obvious and I doubt any of you will argue with it.

It seems that world was spinning around stab and channelers lately and everyone was thinking of how to nerf 'easy mode'. It would be much easier to fix the problem by upgrading other setups which currently suck. Abs weapons currently do a tiny bit of extra damage compared to combo ones while combo in general has 10x more survivability. Make abs weapons deal 2-3x more damage(and actually hit bashed opponents lol) compared to combo ones and the problem is solved. It will allow people to get a huge offensive boost in trade of their survivability. Right now game is waaaay to supportive to people who play pb/dodge and spam flee all the time. These setups are very annoying/impossible to fight against unless you are stabby.

p.s. Also, fix stupid 0-1 round bashes.

langois
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:53 pm

Re: Why would anyone want to pk you guys?

Post by langois » Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:04 am

I agree with most of this. Auto wimpy isn’t broken. Dodge would be unplayable if this were changed.

Abs weapons need more OB or abs needs to weigh less


146 db (decent but not insane) is bashed at 10% by an unmastered brave 19 str troll hunter with 99 weapons 99 bash and a h/h Csword.
Throw in Armor and this drops to 0% as per bash calculator stats.

You killed abs hunters. You downed warriors. You killed bashing ds leaders and then you upped stab. Revert to the last stab damage but with the upped landing. Make notice cost no extra rooms. Remove notice protection vs stab. If notice is free and you’re still getting stabbed. You deserve it

Stab will be effective still but it won’t be so good no one plays anything else.

erulak
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:11 pm

Re: Why would anyone want to pk you guys?

Post by erulak » Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:13 am

Davor wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:15 am
Agree with Hps but it should be lower. Stab should still have a % cap and a 75% land rate. I know it’s your bread and butter class but it needs adjusting.
My bread and butter is heron with autotrack, like the rest of us.
Everyone on the thread is in agreement with that and yet we just start attacking each other. I don’t think anyone has some master agenda in this game anymore, at least I don’t. It’s a shitty class to play against and in genera ruins PK. Langois basically just said the only reason he plays it is for ez mode.
At least Langois is honest about wanting EZ mode. The attacks are about 49% serious!
I’m not sure why you are still so emotional on this game.
This seems a little random, but once I'm emotional enough on this game to only pretend to PK against friends cross-race, we can sit down and have a discussion about it.
Stanislav wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:43 am
The core of problem isn't stab being OP, but other setups being trash compared to stab.
^ This is more or less correct, with the caveat that stab/shortblades felt like they were in the right place before the recent upping to stab. The only abs weapons that feel good to play on normal characters at the moment are war mauls and heron great swords -- and even the former feels good primarily on characters that have OB bonuses like master, warrior or warder. That shouldn't be the case. I don't think the survivability of abs needs to be upped, but your output should be worth the while if your damage in-take is as persistent as it is in abs.
Jaster wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:58 am
Part of the problem is that some of the people in easy mode aren’t even rogues. They just play stab.
Great point, I think backstab should work *exactly* like it does for WB for everyone.

langois wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:04 am
You killed abs hunters. You downed warriors. You killed bashing ds leaders and then you upped stab. Revert to the last stab damage but with the upped landing. Make notice cost no extra rooms. Remove notice protection vs stab. If notice is free and you’re still getting stabbed. You deserve it
^ This too. I don't get what the point of removing berserk attack was if you're going to up rogues and defense and channelers instead of abs and abs weapons. I recognize they've technically been upped, but so has everything else so it's still relatively worse.

Ciara
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:25 pm

Re: Why would anyone want to pk you guys?

Post by Ciara » Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:46 am

isabel wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:47 am
Faint Trail Outside Lugard
[ obvious exits: E W ]
A thick, leather backpack lies abandoned here.
A mirrored lantern has been left here.
A pile of copper pennies lies here.
A lantern has been left here.
A water skin made from dried human flesh lies here.
You notice a dagger of green jade is hidden here.
A gray palfrey prances skittishly nearby, being ridden by you.
*Sorvitor* is standing here.
You sense a hidden life form in the area...
You sense a hidden life form in the area...
Nunzio has arrived from the west, riding a bloodstock stallion.
Lisennet has arrived from the west, riding a dust-colored gelding.
As a channeler if I got led into this room, I'd be spamming a direction as soon as I was engaged, I may even choose not to engage and walk out.

People will always try to pull this off, you've got to play smart.

Rark
Posts: 251
Joined: Thu May 07, 2015 10:54 am

Re: Why would anyone want to pk you guys?

Post by Rark » Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:02 am

My main gripe with stab isn't it being OP, it is that it encourages a playstyle that is absolutely garbage for the other side and to a large degree for your own side.

Nothing worse than leading on DS and having 2 rogues going for stabs, nothing worse being the only basher having the other rogues going for stabs while you're taking dmg that could so easily be avoided if the rogue would sit and melee. Nothing worse than chasing a rogue around a footballfield while he spamflees around at hurt trying to get a stab off for the n'th time. Toss into the mix snow covering tracks or just ranger sneak residues messing with tracks and it gets even worse. Nothing worse than, as we saw in the original log, being an abser having to pk two rogues who for whatever reason just don't want to melee.

I think the main reason I don't have an issue with channelers etc. is that at some point or another the channeler will generally have to go on the aggressive if they want a kill, they'll have to chase, they actually have to complete their timer in your room, giving you a chance to complete your timer and take them out. For stabbers, this isn't so. Even pkers who are usually good fun on their non stabbing chars, become incredibly boring just by virtue of the setup itself.

What I don't understand however is the people who also agree that stab is god awful to play against, then go and play it themselves. At some point you just gotta ask yourself, would I have fun if I pk'd myself? A little self constraint goes a long way. Same way if there's already multiple channelers up north, ask yourself, would me joining pk as the 3rd or 4th channeler up or down the quality and enjoyment of the PK. If not then go long a basher or alt to the other side.

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