PK (Players Killing Players)

... tales of great battles, stealthy adversaries and improving your PK skills. Careful though, no whining!
Razhak
Posts: 1396
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:43 am

Re: PK (Players Killing Players)

Post by Razhak » Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:04 pm

Fine, but then first lets down LS cities to DS levels and then we start balancing DS cities again? OK :)

Kryyg
Posts: 334
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:52 am

Re: PK (Players Killing Players)

Post by Kryyg » Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:25 pm

I’m in agreement with that.

Geoff
Posts: 164
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:03 am

Re: PK (Players Killing Players)

Post by Geoff » Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:48 pm

Kryyg wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:52 pm
I think it was an over reach and a bad change. When LS has a huge group - that is the point to do something dangerous. If there are only 1-2 DS on then no amount of mob support should let them turn the tide - maybe survive and not get ganked but chasing and stunning?
These mobs stun? Yikes.

I feel like there should at least be a DS PC numbers check to cut-off when these mobs can stun - e.g., if there have been 3 or more DS PCs in the same room as the patty (within the last X tics, or something) then the stunning should not happen, given the DS PCs can mount a more effective defence.

On a similar note, the stunning vs 3 PCs (or fewer) seems a bit much if the aim was to reduce the effectiveness of smash groups, and just disincentivises chasing into RK. Would it make more sense to only let the mobs stun vs groups of X or greater, or even have a increasing % of stunning as more LS PCs are present?

This is all to say if the stunning mechanic is here to stay, that is. I still agree that the proposed change of the patty kicking on % is a more measured and appropriate change than these are, in line with what the DS cityheads now do.

Detritus
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:22 am

Re: PK (Players Killing Players)

Post by Detritus » Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:00 am

Mobs emote stunning is a stupid concept to put in game at all when have kick and bash available to use.

The idea of being able to create mob support(in any way) is great and is influencing mud(every single ctf city/patrol is great conceptually). Cities being in deadend doortrap DTs less so.

Ruined keep is the least in need of mob support, the most open and able to use various mobs or fight back against the odds with less numbers. It just has a stupid no-mob right in the middle of it and a bunch of needless trap doors(like this one that backfired and rockpen).

isabel
Posts: 1713
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:19 am

Re: PK (Players Killing Players)

Post by isabel » Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:11 am

Alternatively, leave DS cityheads as master quest stuff instead of them being worth hitting just for smobbing purposes. That way the only reason to go into RK will be for PK.

@Krryg - jus for one day log on a normal trolloc at the graveyard hour, maybe with another trolloc, and see what you can do against the 4-fc 2-rogue 2-basher Draz group that will have the rogues spamming 1s blarg, the group sitting 1d blarg waiting 6 tics for you to get bored and rent, drop link, or suicide to them.

Then do that for 100 days :)))))))

Draz
Posts: 559
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:14 pm

Re: PK (Players Killing Players)

Post by Draz » Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:06 am

I'd quite like to see the logs of people getting stunned so far; today we were hitting RK with zero ds online - Fiddler logged on - somehow two of my group got stuck at this patty. One of them died apparently unable to do anything and the other (Eldrenia) went crit.

The imms already know mob bash on random patties is idiotic and makes it worst for whoever the lower common denominator is. Its why it was removed from so many patties because of how fucked it is. Same as mob charge. Same as mob channel should be.

Seriously, the changes you've made to clan heads already are plenty, the mobs kick, the mobs disengage and reengage, the mobs bash, the clan heads regen to full even if they're already low if someone bashes, they fear and destroy people to such an extent that if we have less than 3 fcs - a single defender can defend almost any cityhead.

Shaidar - the last 3-4 times we've tried hitting it (I'm no longer hitting it even with groups of 7 fyi) instant killed 2-3 people each time.

Yes we're good at hitting cityheads - you literally want something to entertain when there are zero on DS and 7+ LS looking to hit stuff. It doesn't mean it should be made a deathtrap for small numbers pk. They're still hard - I literally can't melee in any combination I've tried some of them with full groups, or getting healed full and trying superman dung again and again. 1 good pker can defend almost any cityhead with almost no risk now, if they're not stupid and we don't have overwhelming force, in which case.. we have overwhelming force

Bearish mobs are already tough, and already chase. If you want to help the defence make one of the RK DGs stationary at bank, with 1 grouped mob, so DS can rely on it.

isabel
Posts: 1713
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:19 am

Re: PK (Players Killing Players)

Post by isabel » Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:06 pm

Draz wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:06 am
you literally want something to entertain when there are zero on DS and 7+ LS looking to hit stuff
This is my problem with what you're doing.

If you look at the players I've seen in our time zone lately, just off the top of my head to name a few, isabel, draz, badd, jael, lisennet, eldrenia, faendar, geoff, reck, fiddler, verne - maybe add/subtract a couple - there are enough pkers here with alts on both sides to pk. That's a mix of some competent players to some relatively new pkers/players. We could actally HAVE highly entertaining and nice pk, instead of people just being pissed off with each other and the game all the time. Today I logged on and it was you cursing DS and somoene was discording me about DS cursing you at the same time - it's not fun for anyone.

It's IMPOSSIBLE to try to get any pk going when you're sitting there every day farming cityheads (kind of funny that you think people spend hours trying to farm your group doing cityheads - this is not a situation They create, it's a situation You create!!). It's not about opportunistic kills either - it's also game immersion and basic RP. It would be very bad RP to ignore your cityhead being killed by a group and we should not expect this.

This is the time when it's fewer US players, more Europe/Aus/Asia. At some point in the game when we have enough things, enough qps, enough gear, we should start thinking about the pk culture we are building.

This is just a suggestion but why not play a trolloc and hit scout, get some pk going around that time? If you are keen on playing Draz then tell 2/3 fcs to go RP in tower or alt to ds or any of a 100 things that can be done, and you can easily be pking a reck/faendar duo or similar - with reasonable numbers, stedding etc all become viable zones to pk even a channie + gaidin combination.

Jael
Posts: 219
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:12 am

Re: PK (Players Killing Players)

Post by Jael » Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:09 pm

I vehemently reject the notion I am a competent player

Jael
Posts: 219
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:12 am

Re: PK (Players Killing Players)

Post by Jael » Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:19 pm

While I understand your complaints I'm often in these groups and some people in them aren't interested in going winding and getting rolled over by some of those players you mention.

What would happen is those who don't want to PK will sit idle in city squares twiddling their thumbs while the rest of us PK.

This brings those players to these zones and lends them opportunity to get comfortable in risky areas and with fighting against DS, and be rewarded for taking that risk.

Hitting DS cityheads is not a new thing, not by any stretch.

What some people can't seem to comprehend is that there is a faction of players that exist that actually enjoy smobbing and that side of the game. Not everyone wants to PK.

As to Razs comments, and like I've said in discord, for sure, down LS cityheads too and give DS the same opportunity. Chances are they probably won't take it, because DS trends to PK centric players. LS isint like that

guhadin
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 5:09 pm

Re: PK (Players Killing Players)

Post by guhadin » Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:15 pm

I think the balance solutions implemented here went in the wrong direction, when there was a much simpler solution: down the rewards. Getting 90 tps a night, and however many qps, is just too much for a full group. It's also too much when it's guaranteed. Top-level smobbing needs to be % based - high enough to be appealing to still hit things, low enough that you're not just farming rares all day.

It's really dangerous balance to implement changes that are straight-up un-fun for both sides. Kick on elites is fine. A few mobs that bash can be fine. A spawnable patty that randomly stuns? Really un-fun. And it will never be used "strategically." It will always be there after a few certain players log on. Zone wide emotes, or emote dmg in general? Really un-fun. Mobs that regen to full? Really un-fun. It's also dangerous to balance around one particular type of group if it disincentivizes low-number PK and other types of group. If a random justice clan can't clear a DS cityhead, even without interference, then it's a real problem. You're effectively giving players fewer choices and less danger. You're also going to end up with more standoffs where DS can hide at cityheads and be perfectly safe because they're being given a wizkill room.

One long term balance solution that would help all over the map is removing WvD. It's just too strong and negates the inherent risk of supermanning on Gaidin (kick on Elites already helps with that.) That would also let imms balance around all types of players, rather than around tower groups. Dreadguards are also too easy to neutralize when they can just be blinded. Is it possible to make them no-blind?

So my suggestion is: reset the DS cityheads effectively back to where they were. Lower the rewards to a point where smob groups have options around the map for what they want to hit. This would reduce some of the bitterness about having smob groups up north when they're not interested in PKing, and it would allow cityheads to stay functionally what they've been: risky master quests and victory laps for groups of PKers when DS has already been cleared. It would also mean that DS has to take more of an incentive to hunt the groups.

Balance against bitterness! I've been plenty salty about the groups farming for such high rewards lately. But it really is a good thing that Draz is putting together groups at dead times to do dung. I'm too lazy to do that most of the time. We need players who make things happen, but at some point it becomes too difficult if the risk is too high and if you feel like you died to gimmicks. It's also cool, as Jael said, that he's pulling together groups of players interested in different things. But these changes are just creating more bitterness all around.

Post Reply