PK (Players Killing Players)

[isabel]

Sorry, but the whole putting groups together in dead times is nonsensical and just a justification for easy qp/tp farming. Today when I logged the first narrs I read were from Draz '4 on ds' 'time to leave'. If there was actual will, then some of the group who feel at risk could be taken out of pk, or if there's very few DS some of the LS could stay to pk etc. Some could alt. This current scenario means that even people who want to pk cannot pk besides doing this ultraboring stuff.

@Jael - I have nothing against smobbing - it's why no one is talking about LS groups doing Jafar for instance. It doesn't interfere with regular pk unless peolpe xrace actively want to take the pk there, as they did recently. The entire mud is there to smob.

The whole newer players are getting some pk exposure in risky zones is also hogwash. I think there is a log up there of a bonded Eldrenia getting chased down blight (and iirc down winding a day later) - does she know the d/lines from downer? Nope, she's just spamming south. How many times has she been there now? From what I can tell newer players/pkers in a Draz group learn to spam spam spam spam heal heal heal heal, wvd wvd wvd, weave smob, weave smob and do absolutely nothing that Draz hasn't told them to do on a pulse by pulse basis.

Contrast that with Faendar logs. Learning zones, learning mechanics, learning opponents, learning your own limits - that should be the way for a newer player to get comfortable in a risky zone.

[Razhak]

Every single time Draz is smobbing cityheads and relevant opposition logs on, he leaves. It seems always something comes up.. Oddly.

It is quite clear he is not there for any prospect of PK. It is clear he is not there for any prospect of risk. It it clear he is not there for anything other then easy farming of tps, qps and eq. And this locking up an entire side has been going on for ages now.

And one single patty added to RK creates an uproar on multiple boards.

Funny.

[Aloisa]

If we're going to keep DS city heads as qp and tp generators (which I do not think we should), let's change the maximum rank that can benefit from doing it. Right now it loses much of its utility at rank 7, let's lower that to rank 6 or rank 5. That should keep people going into risky areas (imms want this) and people doing things in groups (everyone wants this), while also discouraging higher powered players focusing on this/ignoring pk.

[guhadin]

Sorry, but the whole putting groups together in dead times is nonsensical and just a justification for easy qp/tp farming. Today when I logged the first narrs I read were from Draz '4 on ds' 'time to leave'. If there was actual will, then some of the group who feel at risk could be taken out of pk, or if there's very few DS some of the LS could stay to pk etc. Some could alt. This current scenario means that even people who want to pk cannot pk besides doing this ultraboring stuff.

Right. Lowering the rewards up north creates a balance between different smobbing options, rather than one obvious chain to farm. If the smob groups aren't camping DS cities, that frees up the zones for PKers. Buffing the zone will not only drive away the smobbers, it will prevent actual PK groups (and individuals) from hitting inside.

It reminds me of the old disarm mobs. Definitely a way of messing with strong players and groups - and a really un-fun way to balance out PK. No blame for the players that took advantage of them while they were there, but it's something you really only get to try a handful of times before everyone has caught on.

And one single patty added to RK creates an uproar on multiple boards.

I'll happily quote my post from the remort forums in its entirety, and let others judge for themselves whether there's an "uproar."

I'm sorry, but the patty is really over the top and not necessary. I posted my thoughts at length on AoW, but these mechanics are really unsatisfying to play with or against. It seems like a much simpler solution to down the rewards. DS has enough mobs in RK.

[Jael]

Sorry, but the whole putting groups together in dead times is nonsensical and just a justification for easy qp/tp farming. Today when I logged the first narrs I read were from Draz '4 on ds' 'time to leave'. If there was actual will, then some of the group who feel at risk could be taken out of pk, or if there's very few DS some of the LS could stay to pk etc. Some could alt. This current scenario means that even people who want to pk cannot pk besides doing this ultraboring stuff.

@Jael - I have nothing against smobbing - it's why no one is talking about LS groups doing Jafar for instance. It doesn't interfere with regular pk unless peolpe xrace actively want to take the pk there, as they did recently. The entire mud is there to smob.

The whole newer players are getting some pk exposure in risky zones is also hogwash. I think there is a log up there of a bonded Eldrenia getting chased down blight (and iirc down winding a day later) - does she know the d/lines from downer? Nope, she's just spamming south. How many times has she been there now? From what I can tell newer players/pkers in a Draz group learn to spam spam spam spam heal heal heal heal, wvd wvd wvd, weave smob, weave smob and do absolutely nothing that Draz hasn't told them to do on a pulse by pulse basis.

Contrast that with Faendar logs. Learning zones, learning mechanics, learning opponents, learning your own limits - that should be the way for a newer player to get comfortable in a risky zone.

Nobody said newer players, I was referring to players that typically don't engage in PK. Your posts are coming across as inflammatory and not constructive to discussion, suggest changes other than "I dont like it." Singling out players for their perceived deficiencies isin't nice and doesn't promote the culture you've said you want to foster.

Admin have made it clear they want the DS cityhead structure to stay as it brings people up to die, and now they're trying to strike a balance where lower players can defend against a group of persons in their city without it becoming a NWIH am I doing that scenario for LS.

If you drive LS away from DS zones and off to Jafar or doing heralds or some such, you won't see any PK either.

Staff are currently trying these patties, and clearly they work, but maybe they work just a little bit too well, sot it gets balanced. They're trying to produce options for low numbers DS to fight back, give it time.

[Geoff]

Every single time Draz is smobbing cityheads and relevant opposition logs on, he leaves. It seems always something comes up.. Oddly.

It is quite clear he is not there for any prospect of PK. It is clear he is not there for any prospect of risk. It it clear he is not there for anything other then easy farming of tps, qps and eq. And this locking up an entire side has been going on for ages now.

And one single patty added to RK creates an uproar on multiple boards.

Funny.

Because I'm relatively new to PK (and would genuinely like to learn more about it), would you mind sharing your thoughts on how Draz (or any group leader) might demonstrate that they are open to the prospect of PK?

Part of the reason I ask, is because when I've been part of these cityhit groups, I've observed it has always stuck around when a DS or multiple DS log on at least for 30 minutes and/or for ample time to have a few skirmishes/kills on either side. Granted, there aren't usually enough DS on during Aussie times for DS to group up for a large battle room battle which is more reminiscent of traditional PK (which I recognise may be indicative of multiple underlying issues), so the few DS that do log on and attempt a defense usually sit in saferooms/patties/doors, or try for hit and runs if they're stabbers. As a group member, I find personally find it difficult to blame a leader for not wanting to subject their group to those conditions (especially a newer group), especially with the addition of that RK patty (which I have yet to interact with, granted, but have seen logs of).

Another reason I ask, is because I find it strange that there are complaints that LS groups are coming to DS cities, which inherently indicates the groups' openness to the prospect of PK. I believe it's universally agreed that blight is naturally a more advantageous environment for DS to fight, with the LS group's main advantage is that they have some preparedness on how to deal with encountering a PC DS through the group leader's instructions (as contrasted with EXPers or smobbers caught unawares by DS)

So to demonstrate openness to PK to DS, should the LS group:

A) Stay in blight indefinitely until more DS log to groupfight? Is there a time threshold?
B) Continue with the cityhit attempts in spite of PC and RK patty resistance? Is there a kill/death threshold?
C) Just not make any cityhit attempts until there are more DS online? Is there a PC # threshold?

TL;DR: What are the conditions where DS would find it acceptable for the LS group to leave? (I'm assuming via CoL is by default an acceptable condition!)

[dager]

I'll give the example of the other day.

I logged on and there was aureus and a statter online, there was mount tracks west of keep, i followed them up dark road, Gnat? logged on around same time and flamed thakandar when i said tracks up dark road.

Just as i got tkd draz group of 6 spammed past and out(assume they sensed gnat zone and instantly bailed, all mobs were alive).

Draz group of 6 proceeded to sit for 10 minutes spamming outside and inside of pit trying to trap in there, not fighting, tracking or doing anything.
Eventually some other people log on so human group goes waygate and sits spamming inside ways waiting for me to track and see where they gone.

(rinse repeat on other days with rockpen and other doors inside consistantly)

Zone sense and playground aren't very good things.

[isabel]

Nobody said newer players, I was referring to players that typically don't engage in PK. Your posts are coming across as inflammatory and not constructive to discussion, suggest changes other than "I dont like it." Singling out players for their perceived deficiencies isin't nice and doesn't promote the culture you've said you want to foster.

I said 'newer players/pkers' aka players who are new or players who are new to pk.

I don't know if you're hearing what I'm saying - not 'you all suck' or some variation of that, but that the logic of 'we are hitting because nothing is going on' is fallacious/spurious and I explained why. Nonsense/hogwash here means 'words that make no sense' - are unsound/illogical.

You're also reading my example about Eldrenia's south d/line as some kind of criticism of the player, which it is absolutely not. I used it as an example of a newer pker not actually learning about pk from these hits, which according to you is something that's happening here as a good-for-pk thing. Eldrenia and I have good RP/interactions across alts and just because I used the very obvious example of someone spamming s from blight/gap/winding regardless of whether there's a N exit in the room - something any LS new to the zone/pk will do - is not some criticism of her. I would be more than happy to practice d/lines zone spams with her.

[Draz]

As a comment on this - maybe ask how often I leave my groups at odd ends because stuff is happening IRL - I can do that during an smob, not vs good pkers. More than half the fights that we’ve just “lost” have pretty much been down to DS logging on and hitting while I’m afk. One or two of those I’ve come back upstairs to find is fighting in a door, and my group ACTUALLY keeping their shot together to win.

Draz is a member of the tower, and expected to not make his group do things they aren’t open to without reason, and personally I have huge issues with the people who firetruck off and leave others to die so they can fight. There have been specific and significant discussions about this an feedback that when people need to leave I be open to that.

The pk yesterday sikari was needing to leave for over half an hour, and others also. And to be clear DS went from 0 to 1 to 4 within 2-3 minutes.

Which happened the day before, and today went from 0 to 3 on one occasion and 1 to 4 on the other. I’ve already mentioned how Geoff needed to afk today, and today’s pk I left late enough that I was late to family dinner, Monday’s I left late enough that I was late to board games, Tuesday I left late enough that I was late to dinner. The time we all died due to fuckups in maze I had someone talking to me in the office and frankly made bad calls, suiciding Geoff (who we subsequently talked about this and survivability choices and the mistakes I had made), and then splitting the group when 2 DLs came and hit us.

I’m under the impression everyone in my groups is learning loads. Look at Geoffs multiple escapes in recent days - even 3 weeks ago that just didn’t happen. Sikari likewise. Eldrenia likewise. Arston, who doesn’t enjoy pk,.. is running on and saving other people, chortlesnorfling consistently. And they bring these skills into other areas, not dying isnrantly in south pk, making good calls, escaping traps etc.

Today the DS literally admitted to sitting around AFK all day waiting for hits.

Almost all of these pk sessions we don’t run away unless we need to leave, or unless you’re using shitty tactics, and frankly once you start doing that so do I.

chortlesnorfling made my day yesterday, 0-4 DS in less than 5 min, and we door Astarion then kill Dager.
chortlesnorfling made my day today, Fiddler wasted his entire chortlesnorfling day to interrupt our hits (ok potentially just between league games and timing was bad but that wasn’t the impression I had at the time), and died for it.

[Draz]

Also yes Eldrenia is actively learning from her mistakes, and getting better and better.