How will it end?

[Jestin]

Oh and of course the exception to the glass cannon concept is of course AS-warder draining. That dung has got to go. Can't have "glass cannons" with 700 potential hps, haha.

[Kryyg]

So while I think stab is totally broken with the insane amount of damage it does, the rogue class itself is broken.

I mastered a human rogue a few years ago. I landed maybe 16 stabs for that. The entire style of well-proportioned felid-footing around never interested me and was frankly some of the worst PK. And yet, I still mastered in a few months. My character was still so powerful I didn’t even need stab. I had 390 hps, sblades are overpowered, I had 320 or more defense, and about 200 ob. No down sides plus if I wanted I could go stab for 300+ hps.

This has been very minimally addressed by the downing of sblades but rogues are still a very powerful melee character who also have powerful defense as well as no hit point restriction.

I propose a severe restriction of defense on all stabbing weapons to make them essentially have a defense between combo and abs. Or a significant hit point cap. This is real balance.

[Ragyn]

eh tbh sblades don't really have a whole lot of pb anymore, think cc is the best with like 12? not like before where they basically had the pb of a mblade and higher ob than lblades, so for nonmasters in combo their defense is generally kind of shabby. Agree with most of what Jestin said, but I think its just a playstyle choice, most likely the people who are spamfleeing around at full hps, would be doing much the same if they were in combo/bash - granted it'd force em to actually fight if they wanted a kill, so who knows and the people who are fun to fight on their regular chars, tend to also be good sports on their stabbers, for the most part anyway.

[Jestin]

Agree Ragyn on the playstyle comment. But as you said if they switch to some combo or dodger then at least they won't have the ability to wizkill you at any instant and will become one of the people that is always ganking you with some low damage weapon instead of someone who can instantly kill you at any time.

I think what should really be done is that (1) stab landing rate can be upped, but (2) stab should always be a % of your hps (could be as high as 90%), but can never fully blick you. This would be both an upping and downing of stab so it wouldn't eliminate the class, but eliminate wizkills. Potentially this could also only apply if you have no quit. If you don't have no quit, then blicks are possible, but if you do have no quit, only up to 90% of the opponents remaining hps can be stabbed.

If something like this is a pipe dream because of coding restraints, then maybe severely reduce damage for all stabbing weapons and introduce non-stabbing short blades with attack with high damage but no stab.

[Enok]

What Ragyn said, mostly.

A few additions:

At some point in history (10 years ago?) I think Viv upped all sblades for some reason and that has since been changed, thankfully. They were by far the best option out there for a year or so. I think that's roughly when you mastered L****n as a lancer, Kryyg, which I seem to recall you did using melee/sblades most of the time.

Rogues die plenty, but the common denominator in these threads will always be master damage. It turns any mediocre weapon into a potentially deadly 1-shot weapon and it's horribly imbalanced. Coding issue, sadly, but it's pretty messed up.

Also, take into consideration the fact that bobo was using a rare weapon here. Dirks aren't the benchmark for sblades even if they're not "rare" per se currently.

The disengage bash "feature" was Detritus' pet peeve back in the day and like someone said, it hasn't changed in 20 years. The 1,5x sitting multiplier (same multiplier as master?) is what killed Ragyn here. Without that, again coding, it probably would've just been a hard stab instead of a max-roll damage stab with a multiplier.

[boboliosie]

By the numbers:

I have 16 con, and per kryygs ~70hp bash I go boom in 4.5 bashes. He's a master gaidin riding zerk with the second or third hardest hitting weapon in the game, so if you notice two bashes really hurts (BTW with zerk attack master DMG and da'es he had the potential to do much more than 70hp per bash, just dice rolls which is what this all comes down to).

You made it seem like if he lands, it's only 70hp damage to me, whereas if he doesn't land, it's insta death. By the numbers, so much had to happen to make that so. Per calculator:

He had 60% chance to land each bash on me with da'es (possibly more, I'm assuming his ob as zerk master was 200 and assuming da'es doesn't have special club tag, my DB was 135ish cause I was holding TONS of gold).

Disengage bash sits you occasionally, not super often, anyone have the stats on that? I assume every 1 out of 4 times.

Per calculator, and assuming he has some notice, stab will land 35 percent...

So 40% x 25% x 35%= 3.5% I get to LAND the stab, this deosnt even account for damage... And there's plenty of resources to show I got just as lucky with the damage. The chances of all this happening how it did are small.

I can't help rogue playstyles, but what I can say about mine is if you let me roll a stab, I'm staying. He lands that bash, and one more, I could easily die with enough zerk attacks firing off. We both took risks, just extreme luck wone through day for me. And I die all the time cause I do some stupid dung, can't help it.

The crown hangs heavy on my brow.

[Kryyg]

By the numbers:

I have 16 con, and per kryygs ~70hp bash I go boom in 4.5 bashes. He's a master gaidin riding zerk with the second or third hardest hitting weapon in the game, so if you notice two bashes really hurts (BTW with zerk attack master DMG and da'es he had the potential to do much more than 70hp per bash, just dice rolls which is what this all comes down to).

You made it seem like if he lands, it's only 70hp damage to me, whereas if he doesn't land, it's insta death. By the numbers, so much had to happen to make that so. Per calculator:

He had 60% chance to land each bash on me with da'es (possibly more, I'm assuming his ob as zerk master was 200 and assuming da'es doesn't have special club tag, my DB was 135ish cause I was holding TONS of gold).

Disengage bash sits you occasionally, not super often, anyone have the stats on that? I assume every 1 out of 4 times.

Per calculator, and assuming he has some notice, stab will land 35 percent...

So 40% x 25% x 35%= 3.5% I get to LAND the stab, this deosnt even account for damage... And there's plenty of resources to show I got just as lucky with the damage. The chances of all this happening how it did are small.

I can't help rogue playstyles, but what I can say about mine is if you let me roll a stab, I'm staying. He lands that bash, and one more, I could easily die with enough zerk attacks firing off. We both took risks, just extreme luck one through day for me. And I die all three time cause I do some stupid dung, can't help it.

The crown hangs heavy on my brow.

I believe you’re reading too much into you specifically VS Ragyn specifically. Put any basher with a claymore VS any rogue with any sblade. The degree of damage and chance of a blick is too high.

3.5% chance of a wiz kill is 3.5% too high in my opinion.

[boboliosie]

3.5% is just to land it, that doesn't account for the dice roll you'd need for high enough damage for blick.

BTW I returned almost everything, cause I'm nice af

[Zangief]

Down Bobo.

[Razhak]

Bobo must have dethroned Zangief as hardest hitting stabber for sure!

All hail the king!