Borderland banned gear change

[hasp]

Oh snap. CoL warrants are going out even more now.

[Anor]

A that's totally not loophole abuse once you explain it like that.

You aren't warranting for actions occurring outside of Fal Data, you are just revoking pardons.

So let me get it straight. Is this the process?

1. Issue a warrant for something outside of the allowed warranting rules. Like killing Tower or a Wisdom anywhere in the world.
2. Apologise for the warrant and grant a pardon along with terms to not do anything the Lancers don't like anywhere in the world.
3. Now you are following the rules from this point forward by not warranting for actions outside of Shienar, but instead you are revoking pardons for actions taken.

Nice

[Dixon]

This is what I don't understand about not being able to warrant someone that attacks someone else in your group. I literally just watched someone not only attack but actually KILL someone I am grouped with.

I can A. do nothing and pretend I never saw it. Then welcome him up north and trust him to have my back while fighting the Shadow.
B. attack him but deal with political repercussions myself.
C. warrant him because he is a chortlesnorfling murderer and I witnessed it with my own eyes. <---- real life choice here

You guys are saying that if someone walked up and killed Moraine while she was out with Agelmar and Uno in Tar Valon or anywhere else not in Shienar, then they would just turn a blind eye and welcome them to fight beside them and trust them? Makes 0 sense. I could care less about the Cosmo thing but this can't warrant someone for killing someone else I am grouped with is stupid.

[Elysia]

I.e. Cosmo receiving a Fal Dara pardon,, with the caveat that he will be rewarranted for attacking a tower member or wisdom anywhere in the world, not merely within the borders of Sheinaran jurisdiction.

Thanks!

That didn't happen though, so it's a moot point. Lancers were already told they can't do the "attack a Wisdom, face Borderland consequences" when that happened. They thought they had Vampa's approval back then because of a misunderstanding, so that was not on them.

I am not up to speed with what happened with Boboliosie. If he feels something bad happened, he should appeal to the clan and if that fails to have the correct result, to imms. If you want action because you believe a clan broke the rules, you're going to have to contact imms. We can't magically be everywhere, every time. Too many times people bitch about imm favoritism when they don't appeal, and if nothing comes from the appeal they don't take it to imms.

Don't mention it in conversation as a friend either, our mailboxes also serve as our to-do lists. Not to mention we get a lot of things "conveniently mentioned" when we are seen on our mortals, do us a favor and let us wear our chillax hats too - just mail and include your version of events so we have a place to start digging.

[Benito]

This is what I don't understand about not being able to warrant someone that attacks someone else in your group. I literally just watched someone not only attack but actually KILL someone I am grouped with.

I can A. do nothing and pretend I never saw it. Then welcome him up north and trust him to have my back while fighting the Shadow.
B. attack him but deal with political repercussions myself.
C. warrant him because he is a chortlesnorfling murderer and I witnessed it with my own eyes. <---- real life choice here

You guys are saying that if someone walked up and killed Moraine while she was out with Agelmar and Uno in Tar Valon or anywhere else not in Shienar, then they would just turn a blind eye and welcome them to fight beside them and trust them? Makes 0 sense. I could care less about the Cosmo thing but this can't warrant someone for killing someone else I am grouped with is stupid.

Agreed. The reason this pops up over and over again is it's a completely counter-intuitive rule, and one that only helps players whose sole RP consists of trying to murder people without having to face any repercussions for their actions.

[daal]

This is what I don't understand about not being able to warrant someone that attacks someone else in your group. I literally just watched someone not only attack but actually KILL someone I am grouped with.

I can A. do nothing and pretend I never saw it. Then welcome him up north and trust him to have my back while fighting the Shadow.
B. attack him but deal with political repercussions myself.
C. warrant him because he is a chortlesnorfling murderer and I witnessed it with my own eyes. <---- real life choice here

You guys are saying that if someone walked up and killed Moraine while she was out with Agelmar and Uno in Tar Valon or anywhere else not in Shienar, then they would just turn a blind eye and welcome them to fight beside them and trust them? Makes 0 sense. I could care less about the Cosmo thing but this can't warrant someone for killing someone else I am grouped with is stupid.

Agreed. The reason this pops up over and over again is it's a completely counter-intuitive rule, and one that only helps players whose sole RP consists of trying to murder people without having to face any repercussions for their actions.

It's a jurisdictional problem.

If you are an American visiting South Africa with your French friend and a Saudi Arabian assassin assaults your French friend, who responds to that situation?

The French (their citizen) and the South Africans (their jurisdiction). The American government probably won't get involved (because no jurisdiction).

You might not suffer criminal consequences in South Africa for intervening (defense of others), but it isn't your country's place to involve itself in the affairs of other sovereign nations.

Can you write a nastygram to the Saudi Arabians? Go right ahead, that's your right as a person, but the law is based on rules, and what you propose is against those rules.

Further, this also creates the niche for the Thiefbane, who are basically the Interpol of wotmud, they have agreements to exercise warrants of the many nations in the jurisdiction of most of the nations of the world.

[granit]

This with me too. I am also curious why Immortals are suddenly choosing in game methods to enforce clan laws, but that is above my pay grade. Maybe I missed something?

This is what we're missing I'm pretty sure... I think you should take a stricter approach to BONUSED clan members not upholding the laws and doing their job/service to King and Country. If they can't hack the rules, they can't have the BONUS's.

This seems pretty motivating to me. I just don't understand why some clans get baby sat and others get the stick. I seem to almost always get the stick very stickable this face of mines! Nobody can tell me why we aren't upholding bonused charachters to higher standards though? If you can do this, and tell me why they of all people can't uphold the laws or be deranked/suffer real in game consequences, then I shall submit

[Cosmo]

Part of the solution here is the punishment for abusing your position needs to be harsh and enforced. People will stop doing it if there are severe consequences.

Paitar hasn't and likely won't get punished for lying to have his illegal warrant stick. Immortal guidance was also not sought proactively as Elysia was paying attention and stepped in. Since posting here I've also heard he took scalps from PK without splitting. People like this do it repeatedly and it's often their word against someone else's. Now we finally have definitive proof of corruption, no one cares.

The reality is players don't want to police other players. Which is why I brought this issue up in the first place.

Most of my appealed warrants have been declined.. but if I somehow successfully appealed a warrant absolutely nothing would happen to the person that issued that warrant.

The person issuing the warrant has a duty to know their laws and when/how to warrant. Doing so wrongly, particularly when it's dishonest, creates all these headaches, makes people jump through hoops they shouldn't have to and wastes everyone's time. The people responsible for all of that can't go unpunished.

After being screwed by a few Paitar types and having your appeals denied because it's their word against yours, you eventually give up on bothering to appeal. It becomes too difficult and you just might as well embrace the warrant and kill them all which is probably where Bobo is at.

[Benito]

It's a jurisdictional problem.

If you are an American visiting South Africa with your French friend and a Saudi Arabian assassin assaults your French friend, who responds to that situation?

The French (their citizen) and the South Africans (their jurisdiction). The American government probably won't get involved (because no jurisdiction).

You might not suffer criminal consequences in South Africa for intervening (defense of others), but it isn't your country's place to involve itself in the affairs of other sovereign nations.

Can you write a nastygram to the Saudi Arabians? Go right ahead, that's your right as a person, but the law is based on rules, and what you propose is against those rules.

Further, this also creates the niche for the Thiefbane, who are basically the Interpol of wotmud, they have agreements to exercise warrants of the many nations in the jurisdiction of most of the nations of the world.

I get the point, but I don't think it actually solves the problem. How often do you see countries welcoming someone who's been convicted of murder in a different country? Or, isn't it the case that someone on the run for murder is often going to be extradited back to the country of the crime? Countries involve themselves in the affairs of other nations all the time. And that's not even counting less extreme examples. For instance, it's well-known that touring American bands often get turned away at the Canadian border if any of its members have DUIs. Why would anyone expect to be welcomed in Fal Dara after murdering someone in front of their Lancer friend?

For me, the simplest solution is to let each clan in the game arrive at its own warranting laws. Go to war with a clan if you don't like how they warrant. I know Elysia disagrees

I just don't understand players who spend more time contesting warrants than actually killing, or trying to kill, other players.

[Naomi]

I was always under the impression that Fal Dara views the Seanchan as a threat, but less of a threat than the Shadow - so while they allow them in their lands to fight against the Shadow, that privilege can be revoked at any time.

Seanchan are allowed in Fal Dara as a privilege, not as a right. Warranting rules are kinda weird for them, in my opinion. Each nation can simply warrant any clanned/unclanned Seanchan and call it a day - you guys aren't regular humans.