WoT show to begin production this Fall!

[Zeeb]

who was the knight in the yellow cloak getting wrecked by that Aiel?

[may72]

who was the knight in the yellow cloak getting wrecked by that Aiel?

Gonna assume i dont need to warn of book spoilers here?
.


I think it was an illian companion soldier. I saw the nine bees of illian on his armour
I think the scene is blood snow, so we may see a flashback of tam finding rand.

[isabel]

Feeling so validated after reading about how the TV series is approaching Jordan's very outdated gender stuff:

"In the second oath, The Wheel of Time TV series drops the use of the male default (the use of male pronouns for everybody in a way that assumes that men are the most important) by changing the wording to “one person may kill another.” This acknowledges the importance and power of women in this world and also avoids the possibility of a loophole where an Aes Sedai could make a weapon intended for women to kill people. "

Contrast with an immortal response on Lancer forums in which I was arguing for making rank titles gender neutral:

"You don't NEED to indicate Gender in that title. The ONLY thing that the Lord/Lady names do that is different from General is indicate gender."

Imm replied:

"No. This isn't revisionist Wheel of Time, it's Wheel of Time."

I really hope imms will see that revisionist wheel of time is the way to go!!!

[Tandrael]

I’m not so sure I’d call the WoT universe “outdated” regarding gender. Not only is it set in a fantasy fiction, but many of the ways gender are treated in the books are a lot more progressive than just about any society in recorded human history. As of the start of the first book, the most powerful people in the known world for nearly 3000 years have been women, and due to the way they involved themselves in international and local politics, are in many ways the de facto rulers. One of the most powerful nations in the known world has only had a female monarch for nearly 1000 years. Even in what’s meant to be a relatively conservative backwoods like Edmond’s Field, the women of the Women’s Circle and the Wisdom have as much (if not more) power than the Village Council and the Mayor. So much of the themes of duality in WoT are applied very heavily to gender. Both genders are shown to have their strengths and weaknesses throughout the entire series.

That being said, keeping in mind that I’m not privy to the forum discussion on the matter, I believe that I agree with Isabel that there’s no need for clan ranks to be gender-specific if the clan takes members from both genders. In the books, Shienaran Lancers would be only male, but that’s not the case in game. Why make ranks male then?

[isabel]

Hi, yes as you said it's very heavily dualistic along gender lines. That's why it is outdated. It's not just about who has more power. It's the very idea of such a gender essentialist world that makes it outdated:

"Gender essentialism is the widely discredited and outdated idea that men and women act differently and have different options in life because of intrinsic or essential differences between the sexes. In other words, it is the idea that men and women are fundamentally different for reasons that are unchangeable."

For an example of this, Moiraine says in The Great Hunt, “A bird cannot teach a fish to fly, nor a fish teach a bird to swim.”

[Dinuc]

Hi, yes as you said it's very heavily dualistic along gender lines. That's why it is outdated. It's not just about who has more power. It's the very idea of such a gender essentialist world that makes it outdated:

Yea I guess the story is outdated. Rand cannot give birth as well. Must be a trash show so not gonna watch it.

But seriously the male and female sources of power are so intrinsic to the world building that it is impossible to retcon. You might as well just write your own fantasy story starting from scratch.

As for Shienaran lancer titles. If you look up the definitions in the dictionaries they say it is just a type of soldier. So it can be male or female.

HuMAN.
MAN.
WoMAN.
CavalryMAN.

All 4 have MAN in it.

[isabel]

Who said the show is trash or outdated?

They don't have to retcon male/female sources of power but they can (and probably will) do something more with it than "men are essentially like this" and "women are essentially like this"

Unseriously (does that include being serious?) Man has "ma" in it so maybe we should just call everyone mom.

[Vampa]

Imm replied:

"No. This isn't revisionist Wheel of Time, it's Wheel of Time."

I really hope imms will see that revisionist wheel of time is the way to go!!!

That's my response, and it's not changing. There are things that can be instantiated de facto, and I am reasonably willing to implement those. Like adding a gender neutral option for character creation. However, I am not going to change anything that exists in-game currently to be gender neutral. Our basis is also the books, and not the show, what happens in the show will not result in changes in-game.

[isabel]

Imm replied:

"No. This isn't revisionist Wheel of Time, it's Wheel of Time."

I really hope imms will see that revisionist wheel of time is the way to go!!!

That's my response, and it's not changing. There are things that can be instantiated de facto, and I am reasonably willing to implement those. Like adding a gender neutral option for character creation. However, I am not going to change anything that exists in-game currently to be gender neutral. Our basis is also the books, and not the show, what happens in the show will not result in changes in-game.

We are talking about rank titles still right? So many clans have had their titles changed - I'm so confused by your stance here. If you're willing to allow gender neutral characters (which imo is a very big deal) how are you objecting to said and existing characters just having neutral titles like General / Lieutenant / Corporal / Soldier as vs something like "Lord Major" which sounds silly even for male characters "Lord Weir the Lord Major" ..just seems like a very odd thing to hold on to.

Exciting news about gender neutral characters!

[Fuujin]

Hi, yes as you said it's very heavily dualistic along gender lines. That's why it is outdated. It's not just about who has more power. It's the very idea of such a gender essentialist world that makes it outdated:

Yea I guess the story is outdated. Rand cannot give birth as well. Must be a trash show so not gonna watch it.

But seriously the male and female sources of power are so intrinsic to the world building that it is impossible to retcon. You might as well just write your own fantasy story starting from scratch.

As for Shienaran lancer titles. If you look up the definitions in the dictionaries they say it is just a type of soldier. So it can be male or female.

HuMAN.
MAN.
WoMAN.
CavalryMAN.

All 4 have MAN in it.

I just want to point out that woman is etymologically distinct from 'man' and the current English spelling has nothing to do with "man - adult human male". Human is also derived from a different source. "Man" also originally meant 'human being' and later did it acquire the gendered meaning we know it has today. It still also means "human". Cavalryman means a cavalry soldier, not a cavalry-riding male.

That's my response, and it's not changing. There are things that can be instantiated de facto, and I am reasonably willing to implement those. Like adding a gender neutral option for character creation. However, I am not going to change anything that exists in-game currently to be gender neutral. Our basis is also the books, and not the show, what happens in the show will not result in changes in-game.

As someone who's nonbinary, I love the idea of creating a gender neutral option for character creation. I totally understand that, with the books being the basis of this game, that we're sticking too them. Given that this is the same world as ours, it's a bit unfortunate that RJ wasn't more aware of the historical fact of gender diversity that has existed throughout human history, but that's okay! It's a fantasy world anyway.

But I have to ask, Vampa, if the books are the basis for this and something you're not willing to depart from, in which book were women allowed to hold military ranks? In which book is "Lord Major" a military rank? The only rank with "Lord" in it within the books is "Lord Captain" a rank that only exists among Children and the Winged Guard, both organizations that only allow men within their ranks. "Major" let alone "Lord Major" are not ranks that exist within the series. Allowing female characters within military organizations is a major departure from the series and makes the argument of "We're sticking to the books" moot. Adding ranks which don't exist in the series also flies in the face of this argument. All of the ranks that actually exist within the series are themselves gender neutral with one exception.

Arguing that we're sticking to the books is fine, but then there are still changes that should happen to make it more in line with the books. However, if we're taking creative liberties, as there have been many, then it doesn't make sense to sit there and say that we can't/won't change the name of ranks or add gender neutral options like 'General' or 'Lieutenant' to clans/individuals who want it.

ETA: I really don't care too much, although I've always felt like being able to choose a title other than Lord or Lady should be an option. I just disagree with the inconsistent argument of "we're sticking to the books" when there are so many departures that are clearly not from the books.