WoT show to begin production this Fall!

[erulak]

That's my response, and it's not changing. There are things that can be instantiated de facto, and I am reasonably willing to implement those. Like adding a gender neutral option for character creation. However, I am not going to change anything that exists in-game currently to be gender neutral. Our basis is also the books, and not the show, what happens in the show will not result in changes in-game.

This is sort of a weird response in the specific context because Shienaran Lancers are a military organization and there's already military organization in the game that uses 'General' instead of 'Lord/Lady' in the game. There are other clans that use things like "Elder" rather than 'Lord/Lady' as well. I don't know how it gets more "instantiated de facto" than that.

Even outside of the gender aspect, General Weir the Lord Major just looks better than Lord Weir the Lord Major.

[Vampa]

Hi, yes as you said it's very heavily dualistic along gender lines. That's why it is outdated. It's not just about who has more power. It's the very idea of such a gender essentialist world that makes it outdated:

Yea I guess the story is outdated. Rand cannot give birth as well. Must be a trash show so not gonna watch it.

But seriously the male and female sources of power are so intrinsic to the world building that it is impossible to retcon. You might as well just write your own fantasy story starting from scratch.

As for Shienaran lancer titles. If you look up the definitions in the dictionaries they say it is just a type of soldier. So it can be male or female.

HuMAN.
MAN.
WoMAN.
CavalryMAN.

All 4 have MAN in it.

I just want to point out that woman is etymologically distinct from 'man' and the current English spelling has nothing to do with "man - adult human male". Human is also derived from a different source. "Man" also originally meant 'human being' and later did it acquire the gendered meaning we know it has today. It still also means "human". Cavalryman means a cavalry soldier, not a cavalry-riding male.

That's my response, and it's not changing. There are things that can be instantiated de facto, and I am reasonably willing to implement those. Like adding a gender neutral option for character creation. However, I am not going to change anything that exists in-game currently to be gender neutral. Our basis is also the books, and not the show, what happens in the show will not result in changes in-game.

As someone who's nonbinary, I love the idea of creating a gender neutral option for character creation. I totally understand that, with the books being the basis of this game, that we're sticking too them. Given that this is the same world as ours, it's a bit unfortunate that RJ wasn't more aware of the historical fact of gender diversity that has existed throughout human history, but that's okay! It's a fantasy world anyway.

But I have to ask, Vampa, if the books are the basis for this and something you're not willing to depart from, in which book were women allowed to hold military ranks? In which book is "Lord Major" a military rank? The only rank with "Lord" in it within the books is "Lord Captain" a rank that only exists among Children and the Winged Guard, both organizations that only allow men within their ranks. "Major" let alone "Lord Major" are not ranks that exist within the series. Allowing female characters within military organizations is a major departure from the series and makes the argument of "We're sticking to the books" moot. Adding ranks which don't exist in the series also flies in the face of this argument. All of the ranks that actually exist within the series are themselves gender neutral with one exception.

Arguing that we're sticking to the books is fine, but then there are still changes that should happen to make it more in line with the books. However, if we're taking creative liberties, as there have been many, then it doesn't make sense to sit there and say that we can't/won't change the name of ranks or add gender neutral options like 'General' or 'Lieutenant' to clans/individuals who want it.

ETA: I really don't care too much, although I've always felt like being able to choose a title other than Lord or Lady should be an option. I just disagree with the inconsistent argument of "we're sticking to the books" when there are so many departures that are clearly not from the books.

It's an honorific, and one which we do allow clans to change at times.

[isabel]

Fuujin - interesting about the name roots - I did not know that. Btw I came across a thing that Min may be cast as non-binary, not sure how reliable the intel was

Erulak - I wasnt even talking about the Lord/Lady but the "Lord Major" (we're still stuck with General Ashlee the Lord Major otherwise).

My expectations from wotmud are quite low and we had a discussion on rank titles being more Rpish going on and I suggested that whatever we make them, we make the new ones gender neutral (I thought that was a small innocuous change, like just drop the Lord from Lord Major). Then an imm said making the entire mud gender neutral was too much work and locked the thread, which was a very odd response I thought :p

[Asandra]

Yeah, all I have to say about this is that Robert Jordan was born in 1948. The world was quite different when he grew up and when he wrote the books. He wrote a series on Conan the Barbarian and he wrote the first book of the Wheel of Time in 1990.
That's more than 30 years ago now.

I'm not personally invested in any kind of gender neutrality or "fancy" titles, but I do applaud any means to take the Wotmud GAME into the 2020's, where gender neutrality and acceptance of people being different is a lot better than in the previous age

[iria]

Could even add it as a perk at 2k qps or a rank 8 to be able to change your title, if it is a lot of work to change for everyone who wants to be Generals instead of Lord/Lady. I'd love to be able to pick something else than a lord/lady, not from any gender perspective I just find it sounds nicer and if it makes gender neutral people happier, then the better. As Erulak says we already have clans that deviate from the Lord/Lady title.

[Itesh]

Couple of points I'll address quickly:

1: In the past week, as the people in Tinkering will be aware, I've added to the code queue a: gender neutral pronouns and b: the option to select to be NB at character creation, at the cost of losing the channeler class.

2: It's not actually possible to adjust a character's pre-title dynamically in-game: unlike your title, which you set yourself and which is saved in your character's memory structure, a pre-title is simply determined by code every time it's required to print it. Therefore, singular changes to a pre-title are not possible without completely rewriting how the game deals with that.

[Davor]

I think we are going to see a spike in players and game activity with these changes. Time well spent. I’m with Vampa.

[Dinuc]

Then an imm said making the entire mud gender neutral was too much work and locked the thread, which was a very odd response I thought :p

The title Lord is already gender neutral according to Wiki and many dictionaries.

Wiki - The appellation "lord" is primarily applied to men, while for women the appellation "lady" is used. This is no longer universal: the Lord of Mann, a title held by the Queen of the United Kingdom, and female Lords Mayor are examples of women who are styled as "Lord".

lord in American English · 1. a person who has authority, control, or power over others; a master, chief, or ruler · 2. a person who exercises authority from

[Fuujin]

Then an imm said making the entire mud gender neutral was too much work and locked the thread, which was a very odd response I thought :p

The title Lord is already gender neutral according to Wiki and many dictionaries.

Wiki - The appellation "lord" is primarily applied to men, while for women the appellation "lady" is used. This is no longer universal: the Lord of Mann, a title held by the Queen of the United Kingdom, and female Lords Mayor are examples of women who are styled as "Lord".

lord in American English · 1. a person who has authority, control, or power over others; a master, chief, or ruler · 2. a person who exercises authority from

Lord isn't gender neutral though. It is a term for males. It falls under the category, as many words do, where the male form is used as the default, but that's not what makes something gender neutral and in fact its an issue that the male form is treated as the neuter as it implies that men are the default. A gender neutral term is one that does not have a gendered association, either masculine or feminine.

Yes, there are many cases where the masculine form is treated as the default and applied to men and women, but that doesn't make it gender neutral. "Mail-man" is an example of a term that was used for a person regardless of their gender for a long time, but was not, in fact, gender neutral. Mail-carrier is gender neutral.

[Fuujin]

Couple of points I'll address quickly:

1: In the past week, as the people in Tinkering will be aware, I've added to the code queue a: gender neutral pronouns and b: the option to select to be NB at character creation, at the cost of losing the channeler class.

2: It's not actually possible to adjust a character's pre-title dynamically in-game: unlike your title, which you set yourself and which is saved in your character's memory structure, a pre-title is simply determined by code every time it's required to print it. Therefore, singular changes to a pre-title are not possible without completely rewriting how the game deals with that.

This is really quite amazing and far more than I had ever expected to see around here. I can totally accept 'It's a coding issue that we can't do this' far easier than 'We're trying to be bookish' when there are plenty of areas where we deviate greatly from the books here. Coding is a real practical barrier, while deciding what we hew closely to from the books and where we deviate is in many ways arbitrary.