WoT show to begin production this Fall!

... sit down, kick back and relax, and talk about anything that doesn't belong on one of the other forums.
Fuujin
Posts: 390
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:54 am

Re: WoT show to begin production this Fall!

Post by Fuujin » Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:07 am

Dinuc wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:39 am
Fuujin wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:25 am
Your point about General is a separate issue of sexism. General isn't gendered any more than Doctor is gendered, but if you assume that a general or a doctor is male that is your sexist/implicit bias at play.
Which is the same for Lord. You assume it is only for men, but that is your sexist/implicit bias at play.

I can use Lord for the queen or other women and that is backed up by the english language dictionary and their given and accepted titles. And the people that manage the dictionaries don't just sit down and change things on a whim. They would have a good reason for doing so.

Just because if in my town we call horses cows and cows penguins, that doesn't mean when I go on the internet I will ask for the websites I visit to change all the horses to cows...

Yes dictionaries won't magically make everyone have the same perceptions of a word. But there is a reason we use them..
I don't assume Lord means man. It is a gendered term. That would be like trying to argue 'boy' is gender neutral. It's not. Boy/girl are both gendered. -Kid- is gender neutral. Lord and Lady are both gendered. -Noble- is gender neutral. King and Queen are both gendered. -Monarch- is gender neutral. You can't take a term which historically has had gendered significance and just make that the default and say it's not gendered anymore. General doesn't have a feminine form. It just is. Doctor doesn't have a feminine form. It just is. Implicit bias is what makes people automatically assume that when they hear Doctor Wotmud that it must be a male - there is no reason to think that Doctor Wotmud should be a male. Historically, for nearly a thousand years, Lord has been a male term without exception. Lady has been the feminine. The fact that there are one or two cases where 'Lord' is used regardless of the person's gender doesn't make it gender neutral. Again, those are cases where the masculine form is being defaulted to - it still carries gendered connotations.

The people writing dictionaries aren't trying to capture all the nuances, as I've repeatedly said and as they themselves will say, as per the quote i gave. They don't change things on a whim, but they also don't make their decisions based on how people actually use language in every day use. And that matters. A lexicographer will look at 'Lord of Mann' and say 'Oh, here's an example where the term is being used regardless of gender, so let's pop that in the dictionary. A linguist, however, who examines how language is actually used, would see that all across the English speaking population people use Lord for men and Lady for women and that these terms carry gendered connotations, dictionary be damn. Dictionaries are not the final say on anything.
Just because if in my town we call horses cows and cows penguins, that doesn't mean when I go on the internet I will ask for the websites I visit to change all the horses to cows...
And I don't think anybody here is asking that we go around and remove all instances of Lord and Lady and replace them with another term. What is being said is that 1. You shouldn't use the masculine form as a default (the specific example being 'Lord Major' being used as a rank) 2. There should be more inclusive options so that people who are not comfortable with gendered terms can choose something outside of them (This was covered by Itesh pointing out that clan honorifics (What are usually Lord and Lady, but also Mistress/Master, and General) are an all or nothing for clans and you can't set them on an individual character basis).

You can keep calling your horses cows all you want, we're just asking that horses also be allowed to be called horses.

Dinuc
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Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:53 am

Re: WoT show to begin production this Fall!

Post by Dinuc » Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:21 am

Fuujin wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:07 am
The fact that there are one or two cases where 'Lord' is used regardless of the person's gender doesn't make it gender neutral.
It does for those use cases. And for the people who are around those use cases the term would be gender neutral. Doesn't matter if historically for 1000 years it was a gendered term. It is being used by those people as a gender neutral term. A linguist would understand that.

You keep saying the dictionary isn't the definitive answer. Well your own perceptions and biases are not the definitive answer either.

isabel
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Re: WoT show to begin production this Fall!

Post by isabel » Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:23 am

Fuujin, beautifully explained!

Dictionaries are also always being updated because language is dynamic - 'awesome' used to mean fearsome (awe inspiring being similar to terrifying) before.

On wotmud lord/lady are not being used in a gender neutral way in any case because male/female characters rank up to lord/lady respectively.

Also, similar to how male is a default in language it was (and is in many places) also the default when assigning gender to the body. When infants were born, doctors would have a measure of how long the penis was supposed to be and if it was smaller than that they would instantly operate and assign the child as "female". So female here was really more about not measuring up, 'not male' as per that medical (completely arbitrary) standard. It was/is a kind of genocide on intersex babies.

Vampa
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Re: WoT show to begin production this Fall!

Post by Vampa » Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:47 am

This is divergent enough from the intended topic to warrant a new thread so if you want to continue it, please do make a new thread.

Jestin
Posts: 294
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Re: WoT show to begin production this Fall!

Post by Jestin » Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:53 pm

There is a new clip with moiraine explaining the dragon. She explicitly says it can be a boy or girl

Ashlee
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Re: WoT show to begin production this Fall!

Post by Ashlee » Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:41 pm

Jestin wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:53 pm
There is a new clip with moiraine explaining the dragon. She explicitly says it can be a boy or girl
I saw. I hope it’s misdirection. There is so much history about why having a male dragon reborn is scary that I an not sure hits the same way if the dragon reborn is a woman. But I guess I should withhold criticism until we see the final product!

isabel
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Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:19 am

Re: WoT show to begin production this Fall!

Post by isabel » Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:59 pm

Anything that keeps the audience guessing is good though. It's such a long series and having all the answers in advance would be bad for suspense building I think. Plus with all the new faces they may want to see how the series plays out and if there's a breakout character that isn't Rand.

The Jon snow / daenrys etc guessing games fuelled a Lot of fan theories. Otherwise WoT being a completed series is a bad thing won't have what was a huuuge thing for HP / GoT fandoms maaaybe

nooro
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:35 am

Re: WoT show to begin production this Fall!

Post by nooro » Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:37 pm

isabel wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:59 pm
Anything that keeps the audience guessing is good though. It's such a long series and having all the answers in advance would be bad for suspense building I think. Plus with all the new faces they may want to see how the series plays out and if there's a breakout character that isn't Rand.
Keeping the audience guessing is one thing. But if anyone other than Rand becomes the Dragon Reborn, they might as well just have written a completely different story (or a different loop of the wheel where we don't even have these main characters).
If Perrin becomes the Dragon Reborn cause he's portrayed by a better actor, what happens then? Rand becomes the wolf bro? They really can't start building up the characters (and their powers) until much later in the show that case. I mean, the showdown with ba'alzamon is already in the first book.
And as someone mentioned above, if there's a female Dragon, the story would be completely different. The fact that we have a tainted male Dragon is what drives a lot of the plot points (for instance, enmity with the Tower). A female Dragon might as well become Amyrlin.

No, I think this is just misdirection for the audience that hasn't read the books. Anything else would be disastrous for the story (as we know it).

iria
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Re: WoT show to begin production this Fall!

Post by iria » Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:23 pm

Did Moiraine actually mention the Dragon Reborn to the kiddos in the books? Been a while since I read the series from start to finish. Isn't the "cover" that they need to escort Egwene to Tar Valon to begin her training and Nynaeve tags along. I can't remember why Rand, Mat and Perrin end up going as well, but something about seeing the world and not wanting to leave Egwene alone with a Sedai? And they end up up north through some "chance".

Can't imagine them changing the Dragon Reborn, it'd be like Peter Jackson giving the Ring to Peppin, doubt they'll ever deviate that much from the baseline. Hope the actor isn't a complete dud, but I'm loving Rosamunde as Moiraine.

Dinuc
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:53 am

Re: WoT show to begin production this Fall!

Post by Dinuc » Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:32 pm

nooro wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:37 pm
No, I think this is just misdirection for the audience that hasn't read the books. Anything else would be disastrous for the story (as we know it).
Yea sounds like it. She says men with power tried to "cage darkness itself" and that broke the world. They remember the man who brought the breaking of the world and him they named Dragon. Now this man has been born again, we don't know where or to whom, or if he was reborn a boy or girl. Only thing we know is he is coming of age now and "we must find them before the dark does".

https://twitter.com/FANologyPV/status/1 ... 4230598658

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