You all have seen it....
You all know it...
Numbers, numbers numbers!!
That is the problem right? We have low numbers, so what's the problem??
Don't give me the "muds are dying in general" crap. "People don't want to play text based games!!" Well that's true to some extent but I don't think that is really our problem. Yes there will be some attrition over time but I am not sure I have seen any game hold its players as long as this one. So what's the problem??
I feel Lightside is the backbone of the mud. Lightside should always have 3x the numbers of either of the other sides. Lightside should be where people start the game. Lightside should be the side people learn the game. Light should be the place where everyone is helpful and friendly....yes yes i have my rose colored glasses on. All that being said I am not wrong. With a strong lightside, the mud will flourish.
So what can we do?
We need to make changes to Lightside. There needs to be better reasons for people to play it.
ok,ok Protus so what do you suggest??
I have tons of ideas, as do others from the small core players still here but these ideas needs to be heard and responded to by people that can actually affect change. Now I quite like most of the imms and I understand their hands are tied to some if not a major degree, BUT if we can't even discuss possibilities in a reasonable manner there is no future for this mud. I love this place and it hurts to see it slowly dying.
So anyway, all of that being said, Lightside needs some if not all of the following: remorts (I have some ideas on this), better smob loads just in the heart of the mud, more things like elysia's auction stuff, more imm (mob) interaction. I know it wasn't super popular but I loved when Be'lal was running loose as long as he doesn't have hurricane(:P) and the list goes on and on. Obviously I have not gone into details on a lot of these ideas but that is what we need. Discussion and from that discussion, ACTION!!
Ok so this post is getting way longer then I planned so I will end with this. Please, please, please we need to make a change!
Corey
Lightside Needs Help
Re: Lightside Needs Help
Lightside always needed access to the easier statting homelands of Seandar to create competitive hunters (which, let's face it, is the bread and butter class of this mud). It blows my mind that Seanchan and Trolls have an easier time statting than LS and it doesn't make any sense at all.
Re: Lightside Needs Help
Ok, here's a little bit of backstory as to why I'm a lifer on DS. Around 98/99 some friends of mine tried to get me to play. I tried out LS, statted a char, and tried to play. I found everyone to be very standoffish, no one helps you eq, and when they do get eq from pk, it goes to their storage. You spend a good week or 2 trying to eq for that set, only to die and have to start over from scratch again. I played for a few weeks and was going to quit. Before I left, I decided to try DS for shits and giggles...WOW!!! what had I been missing?! Even though it had the warning for experienced players only, I found people over there to be WAAAAYYYYY nicer. EQ was free. You would pk, die, and get reeqed in a full set in no time. If they didn't have one from pk, everyone rallied to help you smob. I find LS to be too much like the real world. Everyone is looking out only for themselves...its a sure I can help, but what do I get out of it mentality. A society based on greed. I, like most on DS, see a newb and am more than happy to welcome them and help them out in any way possible. We will raz you for being terrible, but we are a tight knit group that is always willing to lend a hand. Most people that try out DS for the first time are utterly shocked, and I cannot count the number of times that someone comes over to try it and says 'why have I been wasting my time on LS for so long?!'
If you want people to start playing LS...BE HELPFUL! Start giving away top end eq instead of hoarding it for yourselves!! Why do you think DS is so successful at pk? It's because you die, you get a full set and run right back out there...this makes you much more useful to your side than dying and all the "well known" or "cool kids" keeping all the good dung for their alts or storage.
Help each other and it will come full circle when you need help.
END RANT
Love always,
Loomis
If you want people to start playing LS...BE HELPFUL! Start giving away top end eq instead of hoarding it for yourselves!! Why do you think DS is so successful at pk? It's because you die, you get a full set and run right back out there...this makes you much more useful to your side than dying and all the "well known" or "cool kids" keeping all the good dung for their alts or storage.
Help each other and it will come full circle when you need help.
END RANT
Love always,
Loomis
Re: Lightside Needs Help
Pretty sure imms are miles ahead of you in terms of ideas and things having been approved. Good stuff too. Coding stuff. Bonuses stuff. Statting stuff. Exp stuff. Things that players will love. Things we've been wanting for in some form or another for a decade or possibly even longer. Some things made easier, some hurdles removed, some things to do. However, we all depend on Flash having the time and/or inclination (I can't possibly judge which is the bottleneck) to review and implement them. Which essentially means various good stuff has been waiting on him for anything between two weeks and 10 months.
Workarounds are constantly on my mind, but some things can't be worked around. Like bonuses. For an abser it would be nice to have an ob bonus. Equipment has bonuses. Have you ever seen an ob bonus on something that is not a weapon? I haven't. Can't be done. That idea out the window. Again.
Re: smobbing, whenever I go smobbing I usually come home with enough spare gear that gets barreled that I don't really think loads are a problem. Unless you're talking top end trinkets, which don't really have a place loading frequently. E.g. see how Sandy's jcuff load lead to a period of almost everyone having jcuffs just after the holidays...
If you have a neat idea for a temporary change, hit me up.
Viv was working on some things for LS clanneds, but she's been unavailable. No idea if/when she's going to pick that up again.
Otherwise, look at all the players who are (essentially selfishly) pursuing the goal of fading and not playing their LSer, usually for months on end, skewing the balance of player distribution. Look at the players who badmouth playing LS. Look at the people who exude the feeling of being leet if you're playing DS and a sucker if you play LS. Those people are part of the problem and not the solution.
Right now, I frequently feel the game is better off with me playing mortal, because that can make the difference between other people actually being able to play the game, or not. It's not like the handful of LSers are going to leap for joy if I do a mobraid, or run a small quest. Half of them will generally be off by themselves, while the other half idles.
And yes, auctions are coming again in the next few months, once I've had a bit of a breather after spending weeks on weapons changes. The last thing we need is me burning out.
Workarounds are constantly on my mind, but some things can't be worked around. Like bonuses. For an abser it would be nice to have an ob bonus. Equipment has bonuses. Have you ever seen an ob bonus on something that is not a weapon? I haven't. Can't be done. That idea out the window. Again.
Re: smobbing, whenever I go smobbing I usually come home with enough spare gear that gets barreled that I don't really think loads are a problem. Unless you're talking top end trinkets, which don't really have a place loading frequently. E.g. see how Sandy's jcuff load lead to a period of almost everyone having jcuffs just after the holidays...
If you have a neat idea for a temporary change, hit me up.
Viv was working on some things for LS clanneds, but she's been unavailable. No idea if/when she's going to pick that up again.
Otherwise, look at all the players who are (essentially selfishly) pursuing the goal of fading and not playing their LSer, usually for months on end, skewing the balance of player distribution. Look at the players who badmouth playing LS. Look at the people who exude the feeling of being leet if you're playing DS and a sucker if you play LS. Those people are part of the problem and not the solution.
Right now, I frequently feel the game is better off with me playing mortal, because that can make the difference between other people actually being able to play the game, or not. It's not like the handful of LSers are going to leap for joy if I do a mobraid, or run a small quest. Half of them will generally be off by themselves, while the other half idles.
And yes, auctions are coming again in the next few months, once I've had a bit of a breather after spending weeks on weapons changes. The last thing we need is me burning out.
Re: Lightside Needs Help
Just because you don't see the help doesn't mean it's not there. Many of us go smobbing quite a bit and drop things in barrels. Light side is fairly spread out, and if you miss that one narrate you may not know the gear is on the other side of the map. I'd be happy to make a more determined effort to put it in CCS if that's where I know people will start looking. I'll rather not leave it FD because it might just get taken by DS. Gear and ease of re-equipping isn't really where I see the help being needed.
DS typically has more seasoned players who know their way around a dline and a choke. I know that's not always true, but generally it is. When I see similar numbers online for LS and DS on, we all know there is a good chance LS will be made up of statters and new players - not PKers. Those new players also need to be taught the game, not just equipped and told what feeding trough to pick out of when they die. They need experienced players to help them learn to pk, learn to smob, etc. Patient players that will let the new guy try and stumble through zones while exping. On that note, a good many LSers may have played a long time, but are not leaders. So with no one willing to lead, and I am guilty of that myself, nothing happens.
It was always my belief that Fades/Masters on DS were expected to be leaders among their race/stock. If you're not finding PK on DS, consider lending your vast expertise to LS please. Those PK walk-through classes the Lancers held used to be great. A lot has changed around here, but our knowledge and willingness to share it with others shouldn't be. I'm not talking about where stuff loads, or what clans have cool perks, or how to get the fastest exp. I'm talking basic game mechanics, basic PK survival, and building confidence. I've personally started to try and help someone I don't know a few times a week. I may forge a new relationship, or become that person a new player looks for every time they log on. The wiki is an amazing resource, but you can't put a price on person to person interaction. We really do come back to this game because of the community.
DS typically has more seasoned players who know their way around a dline and a choke. I know that's not always true, but generally it is. When I see similar numbers online for LS and DS on, we all know there is a good chance LS will be made up of statters and new players - not PKers. Those new players also need to be taught the game, not just equipped and told what feeding trough to pick out of when they die. They need experienced players to help them learn to pk, learn to smob, etc. Patient players that will let the new guy try and stumble through zones while exping. On that note, a good many LSers may have played a long time, but are not leaders. So with no one willing to lead, and I am guilty of that myself, nothing happens.
It was always my belief that Fades/Masters on DS were expected to be leaders among their race/stock. If you're not finding PK on DS, consider lending your vast expertise to LS please. Those PK walk-through classes the Lancers held used to be great. A lot has changed around here, but our knowledge and willingness to share it with others shouldn't be. I'm not talking about where stuff loads, or what clans have cool perks, or how to get the fastest exp. I'm talking basic game mechanics, basic PK survival, and building confidence. I've personally started to try and help someone I don't know a few times a week. I may forge a new relationship, or become that person a new player looks for every time they log on. The wiki is an amazing resource, but you can't put a price on person to person interaction. We really do come back to this game because of the community.
Re: Lightside Needs Help
Human side needs to be saved but its going to be hard. Low numbers to some extent can be self defeating - you show up on an empty mud and just sign back off. The game literally tells people to play human first. There's a lot of things we can try, but I think the heart of the question is - what would allow Wotmud to convert new players into retained players.
Remorts for humanside would be "cool" (I actually don't really want human remorts because I think fades are a disaster, but maybe they'd help keep some firmly devoted players on light side), but will they actually do anything to keep new players around? I mostly doubt it, but then I wrote the paragraph below and I recognized the dissonance of my thought process.
Warders and Wolfbrothers and Blademasters. This is my oddball comment in the spirit of trying to question things we take for granted. I'm going to go out on a limb and say most people who join this game wanted to be some version of the above and I don't really think they have a shot in hell.
I think I have a pretty good grasp of the arguments against this and I think the majority of them are entirely reasonable. The clan structures and process makes sense. Valuable bonuses and things need to be protected - it isn't like we are just making everyone fades. People need to work for things - it doesn't have value unless its earned. You could get into these clans if you wanted to. Probably agree on Gaidin. Not really sure on wolfbrother.
That said - its all coding, but I wonder if we need to radically question how these three opportunities are setup/made available. If the game was remade from the ground up could they have been a flag that players achieve and try to build upon early. Currently its Wotmud - we have Warders, Wolfbrothers, and ..Blademasters (I recognize this one is weird right now, but in the past it could have been a part of the trifecta), but they are really, really, really hard to obtain after years of building experience. If you had "discovered" your inner wolfbrother at level 15 with extremely marginal/negligible bonuses or started the path to Blademaster at the warrior's guild early on - would that have been more fun? Which Wotmud would you have chosen? Again - coding and plenty of great reasons to never change any of this.
This is in no way meant to be a knock against the people in these clans for having "unfair" clanning expectations or being cliquey or the Imms for protecting something that could easily be unbalanced. I personally don't want everyone sneaking around like wolfbrothers or bashing like Warders or ..issuing herons. All I'm saying is.. one of Wotmud's best calling cards is a dream that could easily be extinguished.
Being human - unfortunately has a lot of little nuisances straight off the bat. Lanterns are a nuisance. Horses are great, but they have a learning curve - I personally think everyone should start with level 1 ride.
Statting - level 3 - great change. Starter stats - also cool. Human homelands - I'm super biased about this because of my terrible Tarabon experience, but would this game be different if more human homelands were like Seandar clones? I statted a rogue the other day randomly - 9 STR and the rest of his stats were junk. I actually think we've created a balance issue by allowing everyone to have super stats (all my characters are becoming variations of 19 19 18), but if you can't beat them then join them. 9 STR shouldn't exist. A lot of human homelands are junk. Better statted characters are just significantly more fun to play - they can use the full variety of weapons and skills.
Human clans - most clans don't really serve a purpose. Most cities are self defending ie. call mob and what not. Even if you join a clan you don't really have any power within your own city or your own country. Not that we really have murderers and rogues anymore, but if a couple of bad guys are sitting in a door in Caemlyn there isn't really anything rank 1 Lion Warden can do to them. That's something, but is that really the issue. Probably not.There's probably something more to be said for it - they are all really the same. What's the difference between ... Lion Wardens, Cairhien, Wall Guards, Valon and ...the Bandar Eban people. You join a clan - you have no bonuses. Mobs assist you in your city, but bad guys don't really come in. You fight Seanchan or darkside. You turn in scalps and slowly rank up to eventually have postures and be able to lead 1 mob outside of your city. The only real difference is that one of these guys had to walk a lot further to turn in scalps and maybe there was very minor tension with another clan - if I mention that then I can add Illian and Tear which are basically the same as the above with an additional opponent.
Conflict - I don't know where to go with this, but we don't really have much anymore. A lot of it I don't miss (cloaks and random murderers killing novices - I remember being on Accepted and some random FC murderer taking down 5-6 novices over the course of an hour - I doubt that was good for the game).
Most of what I've said is coding, but we've put far to much energy into the predators that feed on an ever decreasing piece of meat in the middle.
Remorts for humanside would be "cool" (I actually don't really want human remorts because I think fades are a disaster, but maybe they'd help keep some firmly devoted players on light side), but will they actually do anything to keep new players around? I mostly doubt it, but then I wrote the paragraph below and I recognized the dissonance of my thought process.
Warders and Wolfbrothers and Blademasters. This is my oddball comment in the spirit of trying to question things we take for granted. I'm going to go out on a limb and say most people who join this game wanted to be some version of the above and I don't really think they have a shot in hell.
I think I have a pretty good grasp of the arguments against this and I think the majority of them are entirely reasonable. The clan structures and process makes sense. Valuable bonuses and things need to be protected - it isn't like we are just making everyone fades. People need to work for things - it doesn't have value unless its earned. You could get into these clans if you wanted to. Probably agree on Gaidin. Not really sure on wolfbrother.
That said - its all coding, but I wonder if we need to radically question how these three opportunities are setup/made available. If the game was remade from the ground up could they have been a flag that players achieve and try to build upon early. Currently its Wotmud - we have Warders, Wolfbrothers, and ..Blademasters (I recognize this one is weird right now, but in the past it could have been a part of the trifecta), but they are really, really, really hard to obtain after years of building experience. If you had "discovered" your inner wolfbrother at level 15 with extremely marginal/negligible bonuses or started the path to Blademaster at the warrior's guild early on - would that have been more fun? Which Wotmud would you have chosen? Again - coding and plenty of great reasons to never change any of this.
This is in no way meant to be a knock against the people in these clans for having "unfair" clanning expectations or being cliquey or the Imms for protecting something that could easily be unbalanced. I personally don't want everyone sneaking around like wolfbrothers or bashing like Warders or ..issuing herons. All I'm saying is.. one of Wotmud's best calling cards is a dream that could easily be extinguished.
Being human - unfortunately has a lot of little nuisances straight off the bat. Lanterns are a nuisance. Horses are great, but they have a learning curve - I personally think everyone should start with level 1 ride.
Statting - level 3 - great change. Starter stats - also cool. Human homelands - I'm super biased about this because of my terrible Tarabon experience, but would this game be different if more human homelands were like Seandar clones? I statted a rogue the other day randomly - 9 STR and the rest of his stats were junk. I actually think we've created a balance issue by allowing everyone to have super stats (all my characters are becoming variations of 19 19 18), but if you can't beat them then join them. 9 STR shouldn't exist. A lot of human homelands are junk. Better statted characters are just significantly more fun to play - they can use the full variety of weapons and skills.
Human clans - most clans don't really serve a purpose. Most cities are self defending ie. call mob and what not. Even if you join a clan you don't really have any power within your own city or your own country. Not that we really have murderers and rogues anymore, but if a couple of bad guys are sitting in a door in Caemlyn there isn't really anything rank 1 Lion Warden can do to them. That's something, but is that really the issue. Probably not.There's probably something more to be said for it - they are all really the same. What's the difference between ... Lion Wardens, Cairhien, Wall Guards, Valon and ...the Bandar Eban people. You join a clan - you have no bonuses. Mobs assist you in your city, but bad guys don't really come in. You fight Seanchan or darkside. You turn in scalps and slowly rank up to eventually have postures and be able to lead 1 mob outside of your city. The only real difference is that one of these guys had to walk a lot further to turn in scalps and maybe there was very minor tension with another clan - if I mention that then I can add Illian and Tear which are basically the same as the above with an additional opponent.
Conflict - I don't know where to go with this, but we don't really have much anymore. A lot of it I don't miss (cloaks and random murderers killing novices - I remember being on Accepted and some random FC murderer taking down 5-6 novices over the course of an hour - I doubt that was good for the game).
Most of what I've said is coding, but we've put far to much energy into the predators that feed on an ever decreasing piece of meat in the middle.
Re: Lightside Needs Help
Relaes - I fully agree on homelands. While I like that each homeland have a predisposition to a certain stat they really should stat way closer to seandar or wolfish stock.
Loomis - I actually had the complete opposite experience from you. I tried DS pretty early in my mud life and was berated and killed and told to bugger off quite a bit, just while I was statting. It wasn't until I became a more established player on LS that I tried DS again and have been playing there most of the time since.
Elysia - the imms are miles ahead of my ideas...holy cow i hope so. The question is why are feet being dragged and things not moving. Is is Flash? Is it Viv or whoever actually has his ear isnt relaying the information properly? Are we afraid to tell him things NEED to change? Any reasonable person will listen to other ideas and at the least explain why they disagree with them or give reasons for not moving forward. The thing is something now needs to happen before there is noone around to see these awesome ideas come to life.
Alayla - I know for a fact alayla tows the line for at least 15 people in terms of giving on this mud. She is a rockstar and one of the reasons if she ever asked for anything I would drop whatever I am doing to help her. Thing is she never asks
Eol - I am glad you chimed in, while i disagree with some of your ideas, I also think some of them have merit. I like to see long time wotmudders say what they think and put their voice to words. We need more of this. Great stuff.
I am not trying to start some uprising here but I am genuinely disturbed at where this place is going and I would be kicking myself if I didn't at least try and speak my peace.
Loomis - I actually had the complete opposite experience from you. I tried DS pretty early in my mud life and was berated and killed and told to bugger off quite a bit, just while I was statting. It wasn't until I became a more established player on LS that I tried DS again and have been playing there most of the time since.
Elysia - the imms are miles ahead of my ideas...holy cow i hope so. The question is why are feet being dragged and things not moving. Is is Flash? Is it Viv or whoever actually has his ear isnt relaying the information properly? Are we afraid to tell him things NEED to change? Any reasonable person will listen to other ideas and at the least explain why they disagree with them or give reasons for not moving forward. The thing is something now needs to happen before there is noone around to see these awesome ideas come to life.
Alayla - I know for a fact alayla tows the line for at least 15 people in terms of giving on this mud. She is a rockstar and one of the reasons if she ever asked for anything I would drop whatever I am doing to help her. Thing is she never asks
Eol - I am glad you chimed in, while i disagree with some of your ideas, I also think some of them have merit. I like to see long time wotmudders say what they think and put their voice to words. We need more of this. Great stuff.
I am not trying to start some uprising here but I am genuinely disturbed at where this place is going and I would be kicking myself if I didn't at least try and speak my peace.
-
Paj
Re: Lightside Needs Help
Mob Raids.
Player-led Raids.
Mob raids are great and mostly its LS that enjoy it. People really band up together, but it is weary-some on the Immortal i imagine too keeping track of how many people they want to kill before they let LS win (not sure if they ever not let LS win).
Player-led raids. DS leads huge groups south and it is fifty-fifty whether LS can muster up the strength to fight them. But I think it'd be great to take this to the next level. Player-driven mob-raids on city. Give a way for LS or DS to trigger mob-raids on opposing cities and zones. This will foster PK in RK, or FD, or in southern cities. Greater chances of really killing people. Right now its oldbies running circles around each other, occasionally dooring each other when they get eager or stupid.
Just an idea.
Player-led Raids.
Mob raids are great and mostly its LS that enjoy it. People really band up together, but it is weary-some on the Immortal i imagine too keeping track of how many people they want to kill before they let LS win (not sure if they ever not let LS win).
Player-led raids. DS leads huge groups south and it is fifty-fifty whether LS can muster up the strength to fight them. But I think it'd be great to take this to the next level. Player-driven mob-raids on city. Give a way for LS or DS to trigger mob-raids on opposing cities and zones. This will foster PK in RK, or FD, or in southern cities. Greater chances of really killing people. Right now its oldbies running circles around each other, occasionally dooring each other when they get eager or stupid.
Just an idea.
Re: Lightside Needs Help
It's a game of repeated bumps and saying it would be really nice if something could be a summer release, followed a few months later by saying it would be nice if it could be a holiday release. Then proposing smaller things and bumping those, asking if a decision has been made etc. Sure, something might come of that eventually, but there's really only so much we can do. I'm sure that with some of these proposals having the full and enthusiastic backing of Athnaina, Elodin, me, Itesh, Tlaloc and Vivienne he grasps that they are greatly desired, but it's not like that has expedited things.Elysia wrote:However, we all depend on Flash having the time and/or inclination (I can't possibly judge which is the bottleneck) to review and implement them. Which essentially means various good stuff has been waiting on him for anything between two weeks and 10 months.
It is what it is. Coding is and will probably always be our greatest obstacle. That and according to Itesh newer mud code bases can actually do some of the stuff we've wanted for years without requiring coding, but which is impossible on here.
Re: Lightside Needs Help
It's cool to see everyone has their input with some pretty awesome ideas. I like the player run mob-raid.
It's draining to see none of them (even the imm's promises) ever come to fruition. Flash needs to loosen his grip, or if not, play a more active role.
For someone like me (who plays almost purely for pk), it's pointless to start a DS alt, clan him, master him and attempt to fade. I don't have the kind of time or desire to really achieve anything. I'm not going to pour RL months into a character again for some slight bonuses in PK. You master one character, you've mastered them all imo.
SS is dead because SS. Had plans to try and master an alt but gave up because reasons.
What I'm still playing for is the hopes that the mud might get a bit of a revival and as a result, there might be more players and pk to be had.
Not only LS needs help, Wotmud needs (management) help.
Pretty much the most active forum posts and discussions these days is how can we improve wotmud, how can we get new players yada yada. We can't until Flash wants to.
/downer rant
It's draining to see none of them (even the imm's promises) ever come to fruition. Flash needs to loosen his grip, or if not, play a more active role.
For someone like me (who plays almost purely for pk), it's pointless to start a DS alt, clan him, master him and attempt to fade. I don't have the kind of time or desire to really achieve anything. I'm not going to pour RL months into a character again for some slight bonuses in PK. You master one character, you've mastered them all imo.
SS is dead because SS. Had plans to try and master an alt but gave up because reasons.
What I'm still playing for is the hopes that the mud might get a bit of a revival and as a result, there might be more players and pk to be had.
Not only LS needs help, Wotmud needs (management) help.
Pretty much the most active forum posts and discussions these days is how can we improve wotmud, how can we get new players yada yada. We can't until Flash wants to.
/downer rant