Wheel of Time MUD

Fostering an Accountable Community

Positive Development: Our community thrives when players support and hold each other accountable. Over the last two years, we have seen that it does not thrive when it feels like the Staff is punishing and micromanaging players. Many of you already engage in constructive feedback and mentorship related to clans that have specific guidelines to help others improve their ability to play the game.


Current Challenge: Players do not regularly hold each other accountable or self-report concerns. As always, Draz will be the example here. There is currently a banishment of the White Tower in the Mayene Province. Draz is farming a smob within the Mayene province. Based on trophies, there are at least some people who are familiar with this, have participated, and are also banished. They may even know that Draz has found ways (despite it being difficult) to solo the smobs. When the Staff steps in, it can be perceived as heavy-handed. However, there is no player accountable for the punishable offenses (breaking RP guidelines, abusing mechanics for group activities). It leads to moments like this, where we find out the extent of his activities, and our response seems heavy-handed. (e.g., If White Tower players were unallowed to enter TAR until there was accountability, how would that come across to players?) (See current punishment post for instance). How many times do we have to catch humans running around with trolloc badges and call that out?

Instead of pushing forward with some punishment, we’re simply pointing out the issue and curious for thoughts.

Our Request: We ask for your cooperation in maintaining the integrity of our roleplaying environment. If you notice rule-breaking or subpar roleplay, kindly address it. If someone is breaking the rules or expectations of their roleplay (e.g. continuous coordination between White Tower and Child of the Light) then roleplay through that experience to create player-driven accountability because it will limit the amount of overreach that you will feel from Staff.

Clarifying Staff Intentions

Positive Development: The Staff works to create engaging scenes and events that enhance our roleplaying experience. The experiences we set up, though, often have a trajectory that we want to hit milestones with for continuance. We’ve worked to create a storyline on a timetable, but the timetable of development is based on players hitting milestones or pushing the narrative.

Current Challenge: There have been misunderstandings regarding the Staff's role in setting up scenes. Some players feel pressured to act, assuming it is demanded by the Staff, especially in scenarios like the Mayene conflict. We want to address this directly because it coincides with, maybe, a larger sense that the Staff is putting things into the game with ulterior intentions to prevent player agency.

Our Request: Please understand that our intention is to enrich the roleplaying experience, not to dictate your actions. Mayene was explicitly told, “You guys banished the tower from your lands, you have the start of an event centered around your territory. You have a bit of leeway here.” But somehow, over the course of the conversation, it seems that Mayene feels they are required to keep the banishment or to lift the banishment or reach a treaty. Even some language around the charges for the crafting offered in the location they have access to seems imposed by immortals and not simply an opportunity to make economics a part of roleplay. The coincidence was simply that there was a banishment in place when we had planned an event around the southeast.

There was potential to engage this in conjunction with the dream spike that was posted about and its impact in the game. While the dream spikes may not have been found, their impact would have been relatively obvious with deduction and could have been used to jumpstart a conversation about a larger threat or something from a different lens. If we saw dialogue and engagement, then there might be something more for them to find.

On the White Tower side, there have been clear violations of that banishment via trophy and then frustrations about the banishment being in place despite the lack of barbs from either the Winged Guards or Staff. On top of this, we’ve seen an increase in direct engagements with Staff to resolve or detail our desires rather than a conversation with players. We intercede only when we see problematic behavior, and we strive to give players as much agency as possible.

We provide these scenes as opportunities for you to engage with, interpret, and expand upon in ways that feel natural for your characters. The intra- and inter-clan dynamics that you engage in are great. We generally intercede after we see problematic things, and sometimes, we get that wrong, but we want players to feel and have agency in the world because we feel it will increase their desire to engage in the world with more frequency.

Encouraging Small-Scale Roleplay

Positive Development: Major events and conflicts can be thrilling, and your enthusiasm for these moments is noted. However, the foundation of our world is built on smaller interactions and daily life roleplay.

Current Challenge: Some players seek significant engagement in large-scale events but may overlook the importance of smaller and consistent in-character roleplay that builds the world and relationships. The world-building has been done by Robert Jordan. We’ve got the roles that we can adopt and play out. The desire to subvert those roles in pursuit of quest points, clan ranks, and personal gain cheapens the experience for everyone. Plenty of roleplayers have largely disconnected from the world because the majority of logins are objective oriented. How do I get more qps? What smobs can I hit for good, consistent loads? Where can I find better PK?

Our Request: Invest time in being a part of the daily story that our world tells. Engage in PK, same side if you want to, roleplay with people as an antagonist. If roleplaying is done in a room that is invite-only, then where do you anticipate interacting with those who stand opposed to you? Forced PK and forced RP should be expectations. This is also a place where you can increase accountability and gain credit for more spot RP. How often are you online and your decision is to simply ignore someone instead of challenging them?

It can be frustrating, given the new RP requirements and the year of time to achieve these acquirements that we see some players coercing others to give awards explicitly or implicitly through descriptions. We recognize that there is a wide variety of feelings about these requirements that limit the number of pve-qps gained, but the year window seemed like it would be a good opportunity to encourage roleplay. Journey before destination as it were.

Finally, it takes a lot of effort to build the story, the game activities related to them, and to do the dungeon mastering aspect of what you would like from the Staff. We’re not asking for sympathy because this is a choice, but we also don’t want to be the only pieces of accountability. When this is the case, you feel that our approach is heavy-handed. Oftentimes, we default to punishments that we hope will curb the behavior entirely. What can players do to create accountability between themselves, and what can we as Staff do to support it?
We do not want to drive the action or lead the narrative (as immortals or mortals). We also do not want to create a system where players are directly going to the Staff for permission to do something, that they then can use as a justification to do their thing. So, when we move to transition pieces of the storyline, and we see the number of violations of the banishment that are present in trophies, and we hear things related to ultimatums given by mobs (Siuan / First of Mayene), then it is a hit against the agency that we desire to give to players and leads to fatigue in general about providing content.


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Conclusion
We want a better environment where people feel compelled to roleplay and enjoy the storytelling between each other. We haven’t made leaps and bounds in fostering roleplay with our hope to do so by the requirement of roleplay QPs. The hope here is that you may have more of an idea of what we are desiring related to roleplay and the game itself. Maybe getting back to the fundamentals of WOT roleplay would be a good exercise in getting rid of the 30-year grudges that we’ve been accumulating. Remember, it’s about the journey, not the destination.
In both the round tables, you’ve expressed a desire for more agency, more roleplay, and more opportunities to engage in the world directly. We’re asking for help or ideas on how to bring that back to the game as a whole and not tie it in isolation to what activities the Staff builds. What can we all do? What are we doing right now that is making this continued experiment feel lackluster related to roleplay?

The WoTMUD Staff
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There is a lot going on in this post. I am going to reread it a few more times.

However, why does the staff feel so compelled to intervene when it should be the member of Mayene to uphold the banishment or come up with agreeable terms during the banishment? Also, does the White tower not have an Ajah suited for this very task? Would this not be the correct expectation? I would need help on this question but did members of the white tower always follow instructions in the book? Or did they try and do some things without getting caught. Getting caught in this case should be the onus of Mayene seeing it done or a member joining Draz group as a spy sending that information to Mayene. Not the Staff checking a trophy to verify their beliefs and totally circumvent the "Players" holding people to account for RP. I would say the biggest frustration at times is when staff see or check trophy to verify something that should be discovered by the players. Perhaps for me it is.
An example of something like this when i first started this game. I did something on the MC vs a mob and then a staff member mailed a rp letter saying a mob saw it happen. And that snowballed me into warrants. That really pissed me off. No player saw anything, it was an imm taking it into their own hands to start the "RP" conflict that held me accountable.
Another incident when i had a law abiding clanned character complete a trade with an mc. Another imm i guess saw it happen because they were snooping and made a big ordeal out of the matter that i was making trades with a male channeler saying mobs saw us completing a transaction of goods and said characters should never do that.

Like Jaster said, many things going on here so will respond.

I see Roleplay Violations and Rule Breaking as completely discreet things. In this situation, it seems to be both and hence the comingling of these into one topic per Feneon's post.

Monitoring RP Violations
@jaster - I do believe most people still playing have an experience of mobs tatting on you at some point in time *cough Viv*. I personally chalk it up to as a game with low population, it is not realistic to have players alone be responsible for monitoring things. Mob reports are part of this effort to support the game and is IC (think scout mobs). I've come to see mobs as NPCs since then.

Where it becomes uncomfortable for me is when there is no IC justification for a violation (and no, trophy is not IC) and yet there is an enforcement action. In my mind, RP Violations should be dealt by providing IC evidence to the clan and handled accordingly. In absence of an active one, dealt with by the clan imm. Again, I'm divorced from the Mayene situation and do not know if this was indeed the case. A simple Mayener scout mob placed at the new claimed border would have helped resolve this dilemma.

Monitoring Player Violations
With the greatest respect, monitoring and reporting non-IC player violation is not the responsibility of the players. Players can of course and are indeed liable for such breaches. To encourage such things, perhaps a carrot and stick approach e.g (bug) bounties may work better.

More to come on other points...

Trophies have always been considered IC. An immortal watching what happens can exercise discretion in putting that to IC. Often we don't, and just roll our eyes.

In the absence of seeing a lot of RP violations reported, players holding each other accountable feels important, otherwise we're just missing each other. The point here is likely to have a conversation about how we can all work together better and potentially have more fun. With respect to what you think, we can clarify things, but in no point were trophies ever "off limits".

If you don't want to say "Hey, that guy is cheating." That's up to you. Plenty of people out there, when they catch others, just report what they're seeing without naming names. You can also talk to your players and ask them to self-report more frequently.

What rubs us the wrong way is when we see it and it looks very much like collusion.

For instance: any of the larger dungeons that required keys were hit before reboot and the group stayed there so they could hit it after reboot without doing any additional work because they knew that reboots recharged keys.

To the other point, happy to break the three bolded sections into other posts and give breath between them. Hope was to have a longer form discussion between immortals and players about things that we're seeing in the game that aren't explicitly game related.

Looks excellent and thought out. The responses also.

Re trophies: please remember we were hitting it before mayene announced / reiterated the banishment.

I understand trophies being IC; I don't understand using them this way. You want to be a wolfie, maybe dont murder wolves. You want to specifically engage in an RP thing you want players engaged in.. why not tell the players there is a rumour of something, or even direct them to watch for it, or per the aforementiomed, put a mob there.

In this case; I was specifically frustrated by what felt forced and fake, and by seeing DS farm it. I stand by my assertion that I didnt not find DS or evidence of them on any day.


Re the prior case of large dungeons and keys; I provided timed logs of sweeping through the key sections in under 5 minutes... at no time did killing the final two smobs take under 15-30, sometimes 45+ as you just couldn't do enough damage. Yes jafar could be shortcutted with the axe, after killing the door , which was really only ever worthwhile on a complete noload or near boot - which I gather was its purpose.

Ditto for Murgoz, you can sweep through the keys, but killing the smob is slow, and without key.. frankly the smob loads are crap, though per posts on the vault thart was too.

Re Mayene: I'm unsure what was requested from staff but I do know i was told Mayene were advised what course to take, and that they couldn't back down...on an unaccredited report that means Sedais are lying..
Sorry but books Mayene would swallow insults all day for the chance to blow the tower; this forced tower to basically beg.

Re badges. I just dont understand why they arent trolloc only. I don't think ive held one on Draz in a very long time, I've definitely held on an alt (till reminded not to) after looting a ds. Did ask those around at the time if they wanted an official report / warrant etc.

Re coordination with CoL - I think its been really well done recently. On both sides. Tower will group if DS; but not otherwise. Tower will not group if accepted group.

Two comments that come to mind.

1) Please please consider invisible powerless RP focused imms

2) Please consider the time spent investigating, watching and policing players as a major focus, and what a waste it is.

Feneon said he didn't want it soloed, and I stopped.
He said preferred not to reuse keys jafar and I stopped.

Also please consider the impression that people killing things in Au timezones is somehow wrong or unfair. If groups are online I include them. If people want to do something I do that. The value proposition behind any of these is significantly lower than pretty much any other avenue.

If I did the random log and do daily quest thing; every non master would be mastered and every master r8.

If i farmed cash for 40-50k/wk within a month I'd have more value than what I have across all alts in 20yrs

If I solo pkd all day I average around 100qps a day, and can double that

If I did herald every day, all alts would be R8 (or lets be rwal, heralds would have been removed).

If I wanted to earn qps via potions per LMH you can farm 40+ a day, or easily get 2-3 gold abs sets a day for your 1/day stub

Ditto for gem mining, selling exp scalps, fishing, staking out clothier, or doing literally anything that isn't high risk. RP too, spam people enough and the kudos are there.

Ditto for fort, cityhits, ctfs, everything.

The thing is. This isn't rare. It isn't unachievable. Of those currently pking, pretty much all could do that. Of those who farm cash (with or without shops), all and and do do that. Of all who smob, or solo smobed Pahar, or deliberately organised daily smash groups for the same.. its not like these encouraged pk. I was told again and again fighting was suicide, and died multiple rimes losing 20+ rares (way more than I got via smob solo or grouped), but guess who fought, who defended, who generated pk. I hit dlord groups in doors with a shocklance (and am still on a high from surviving), I killed multiple dlords and fades and trollocs in Tear, I saved multiple people who just happened to be found by said smash groups.. and yes I got a fair few people killed; ultimately continuing to fight until I died or they did.

If I alted, and pestered people to alt, these smobs would have died just as often, that said pretty much every heron load (super high dmg output) by the time I did get a group ds had finished hit.

Anyone who thinks those things aren't achievable, if playing all day, reconsider. Of course there might be group pk all day, or someone else might be farming, or ds may not be flipping ctfs.. but really? All pretty predictable.

Draz wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 08, 2024 12:27 am

Re coordination with CoL - I think its been really well done recently. On both sides. Tower will group if DS; but not otherwise. Tower will not group if accepted group.

Except for the fact that the person who was seen grouped with you had repeatedly asked about grouping with the Tower and been told no, that would be considered bad RP. So while I can get the Tower's perspective, no, this wasn't done well on both sides.

The real crux is this, and I have said this before and I will say it again. When something like this occurs, it will end up being discussed by Watchers/ Staff, which usually takes some back and forth, weighing different things, which takes away time that could be spent on OTHER things. Any which way you turn, the moment something occurs that is problematic, it will take away time that could be spent on the game at large, on the playerbase at large.

And sure, you can say "why do Watchers/ Staff even bother stepping in, let players handle things" but:

-do we want a reasonably level playing field with WoT RP
or
-do we want a free for all where RP doesn't matter at all

Considering we're WoTmud... that should answer why we make it matter. We do bounce it to players as often as we can. In case of Mayene, Draz was caught days before I was going on vacation and I was in the middle of packing, making the perfect solution impossible, so I went with the next best thing: notify players on both sides as the mob. Which gave the Tower an opening the size of a barndoor that they completely missed, but that is going to be a whole ass other discussion.

I've personally never been that into a "kinetic" brand of RP, but most of us stretching back however long were "in-character" to the extent that, if we were logging on our CoL or Kin, we just weren't interested in spending amiable time with Tower characters. Similarly, if we were on characters it made no sense to be sipping tea with Tower on, we wouldn't do it. That's not "RP" as we think of it, but it's a basic character element we weren't subverting with whatever excuse we had in mind because we want to smob (and later, herald) on that particular character or something. It feels like that's been eroded by a "nudge nudge, we're all just trying to advance here" culture and gone for a long time now and WoTMUD has been worse for it.

Relevance to this post is that the players abdicated any interest in holding each other accountable (IC, OOC, otherwise) a long time ago and I get it to some extent - we don't log on to police each other. But at the same time, if I'm playing pick up soccer somewhere, it's generally understood people will a) try to play to the spirit of the game -- people who run around doing dumb/reckless dung will not be lauded for it, and b) if there are obvious/egregious fouls, you call them, because while we're not resourcing pick-up games with an all-seeing referee, we still want to experience playing the game we're trying to play, not a free-for-all that vaguely resembles it.


I don't love that trophies are IC without the functionality of any other character being able to view your trophy (thiefbane bonus!?!). But, as was said, this has always been the case - we used to get our trophy checked for joining a fair number of clans.

Elysia - and Erulak I guess. I love that individuals have their own RP. Now if there is an ingame instruction from the clan to the contrary, I get that; but kin not wanting to hang with tower, or go to TV, or CoL not being interested in Tower opinions (whole murder hobo argument aside), but if I look at my defender, his RP background is he didn't grow up in tear, and isn't scared of channeling. Does he obey the laws and not let FCs get away with breaking them? 100% I hold myself to a higher account because thats the specific RP. Likewise specific rules for gaidin is you can group with CoL if there are shadowspawn, but that the rules for accepted is they CANNOT ever group with them, so if you have an accepted grouped in DS pk you boot the CoL. Again, if you take books references CoL fought alongside Tower against DS, and murder was pretty much only ever on a 'can we find them without witnesses and get away with it' level, it wasn't all murder hobos, and they weren't all blinded bigots.

So my question is; was he told by an imm, or within his clan hierarchy; or was there an RP element to saying 'really, if you expect your career to advance you should never ever be seen to assist those pisants'. I don't know about you but someone saves my life, or that of my Sedai, from trollocs a few times I don't care what colour his cloak is, I'm going right back to save him. I still won't group him with an accepted though, or if there isn't DS / trollocs / fades whatever, probably SS too, though I'm unsure on that.

and with respect to the playing field; you have mechanisms to award rp, and mechanisms without, and you've now implemented a requirement for both; why not let that play out? if someone doesn't rp at all and pushes r8,..they've got a rude surprise. If someone RPs plenty, they get r8 that much easier. If someone is rping; totally reasonable and fine to tell someone who isn't immersed they're rping, either they can be invited to join, or go away. If you have an issue with someone breaking rp, you can raise that through rp channels..and if you don't have a problem..why an issue.


If I look at my RP, I don't like murderers, bullies, or bigots. I have a general expectation that CoL will fall into those categories, as well as various others. I'm still going to have DS trump that every single time, excepting murdering crazy mcs, or as per direction from my Sedai or the Tower.
In this particular CoLs case I advised him about a HoL who is specifically unwarranted because they've RPd that and never broken TV laws, I gather he had that possibility removed because he got warranted, but I don't see any issue with that.

Re the comments on collusion; if that were the case everything would line up perfectly within the rules and you'd never see it.
A group of people logging on at a specific time for cityhits, every day, for months, did not involve me. Never got seen by DS.
A group of people logging on to smash Tar every evening, totally within the rules.
There was no need for me to stay on Draz for the Mayene stuff, I stayed on because I had already RPd that it didn't fall within the boundary, and that if I found DS I would pursue them. Re CoL.. so pk ended and we flip a ds fort, when his focus is fighting ds, I see no issue with him being there, bu not grouped. But he wouldn't be invited for Greegan or Pahar, since they're not DS. Unless it was in the middle of some RP session (not run by me, because it would tank), where partnership was being actively discussed. Ala the HoL who has different RP. Or a truce in war to discuss terms or rules of war.