Wheel of Time MUD

Hey,

I used to like playing dodge, combo and abs. All if it used to have pros and cons.
Big dmg, big bash? ABS
Lower dmg, less bash but higher survivability? Combo
Living on the edge, win or lose (typically rogue or channie)? Dodge

With the (relative) new rare 1h weapons and everyone being 19 18 19 or a permutation of it, combo has it all:
Big dmg? Check
Big bash? Check
High survivability? Check

The only reason to still go ABS is if you don't have any combo or combo weapon.

Here comes my sulution: remove PB from the bash equation.
This makes a lot of combo weapons less powerful (because less bash) and ABS weapons more powerful in comparison.
What do you think?

Asandra wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 01, 2024 6:03 am

everyone being 19 18 19 or a permutation of it

There's the real issue. I think the very last thing we need is yet another band-aid weapons overhaul by removing PB. We need to fix stats and that begs the question if we (as a playerbase) are interested in an interesting game or typing stat and jerking off to our zero-effort-botted 19 19 19s in perpetuity. If (on reset and point-buy) you can afford to only be 19 18 17 or 19 19 16 or 19 16 19 depending on what set up you are opting into (just random examples), it changes the complexion of the game pretty significantly without touching weapons.

Band-aid fixes are not a problem, but I think a coding change and subsequent weapons overhaul is a lot, even in concept.

I don't think PB is the problem. Basic combo, without the use of rare weapons, is... not great. To the point of me having gone abs, while I prefer combo. I like playing weapons long term so I don't have to get used to fluctuating stats, so consequently, I don't care about rares. Basically rendering me unplayable in basic combo. So, imo, it's the rare combo weapons that are the problem, not necessarily combo being too OP.

I don't think any fix to stats will help any situation now. Everyone already has super stats and super statted alts. There's nothing to really be done there. It will just be a classic wotmud ladder pull up for the new players to have even less advantage.

Stomper wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 01, 2024 10:53 am

I don't think any fix to stats will help any situation now. Everyone already has super stats and super statted alts. There's nothing to really be done there. It will just be a classic wotmud ladder pull up for the new players to have even less advantage.

Not if it applies retroactively, that'd be a big part of any major overhaul to point distribution system. But I'll tally one for 'jerking off to our zero-effort-botted or reroll-cheated stats in perpetuity' for posterity.

reil wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:00 am

Not if it applies retroactively, that'd be a big part of any major overhaul to point distribution system. But I'll tally one for 'jerking off to our zero-effort-botted or reroll-cheated stats in perpetuity' for posterity.

Yeah, I was assuming this. Just like with trolloc homelands, one day you'd log on to having to choose new stats. I'd say that IF we were to go that way, it should also display the hps rolls for our new con, not that you pick 18 con and end up with 350 hps. *glares at the one 19 19 18 I statted which flunked horrendously*

I agree there is a balance issue between the three types of setups but Bash is not the problem.

The current issues are:

1. Combo equipment is overperforming.
2. ABS equipment feels like paper.

To delve into 1. Combo equipment, let's first define the different combo setups. There are three combo setups, Light, Regular and Heavy but light-combo is pointless so I am ignorning that one. Imo it exists for flavor only. That said, here are the Regular and Heavy combo setups:

Regular Combo :
a gold-chased morion with an engraved silver comb
a set of riveted chainmail sleeves
a tunic of finely-crafted chain
a sturdy pair of full leather gauntlets
a set of riveted chainmail leggings
a pair of gleaming metal boots

Heavy Combo :
a gold-chased morion with an engraved silver comb
a pair of polished, gold-plated vambraces
an engraved gold-plated breastplate
a sturdy pair of full leather gauntlets
a pair of thick, gold-plated greaves
a pair of gleaming metal boots

There is a lack of tradeoff when it comes to combo as there simply shouldn't exist absolute best in slot items for combo like the gleaming boots, sturdy gauntlets and morion helmet. Those three items are the cream of the crop in every category of abs % and total deffence (PB/DB modifiers). That's the first issue. Combo should be more difficult to put together in terms of choices and make larger sacrifices depending on personal playstyle. If you want to buff without getting hit then you'll sacrifice abs %. If you want to live through more bashes, then you sacrifice deffence for more abs%. Currently there isn't enough sacrifice which makes combo overperform.

I'd suggest making the helmet and boots "Heavy combo" by reflecting the degree of abs/deffence maluses that "gold combo" has. IE. Keep their abs % and add DB/PB penalties.

A rimmed helmet will be relevant for Regular combo.
A set of fur boots or set of lissome boots will become relevant for Regular Combo.

Heavy combo with full trinks and a solid non-craftable/non-rare should pull 215-220 deffence at best. 235-240 with a rare.

Regular combo with full trinks and a solid non-craftable/non-rare should pull 235-240 at best. 250-255 with a rare.

The idea being, in Heavy combo you can parry/dodge most of the little stuff but will take small hits more often. And Regular combo you can parry/dodge the little stuff more but will take more damage for the hits you do take.

In both scenarios, the total deffence is much lower than it once was and today's meta of High OB weapons thrasing combo works out well to not have "unkillable" opponents.

Even with Lamans and maxed out trinks, I had 255 deffence and could not buff 2 trolls without having the deffence be broken. Which is perfect imo. Unkillable is no fun for anyone. (See a Lykan log when he had Lamans and 300 deffence with 81% abs. I'm going off of memory so could be off a little but the idea that someone can pull extreme deffence and max abs is no fun for anyone. And this has been addressed! just needs a little more tweaking.)


2. Which brings us to the second issue which is vaguely that ABS equipment feels like paper.
ABS gear, is in a tricky spot. It has to work vs mobs and players. And with warriors having inherent damage reduction vs mobs the armor itself can't be upped too much or warriors will be the OP city head mob-buffing tanks that they once were.

The current state of abs in PK is that the best non-rare combo weapon hits as hard or harder than regular abs weapons. So fighting a comboer is basically fighting an abser but with no draw backs.

Also, all clanned persons have mini-master-damage bonuses associated to rank now, which also works against ABS players more than any other since every hit is harder across the board.

So ABS, is taking too much damage. How can that be fixed? Here are some ideas:

Either all combo weapons need to be downed or abs% be upped and Warrior Inherent Damage Reduction bonus be downed or an HP cap be slapped onto all Hunters and Rogues to even out the playing field. Another idea would be upping abs weapon damage across the board.

Personally, I'd be in favor of keeping combo weapon damage as is since we don't want tickle sticks and people dieing is a good thing. Damage reduction vs mobs is flavorful but not much of an insentive to play a warrior imo. I would however very much like to see an HP cap associated to each class! This alone would make a major difference in leveling the playing field and awarding a reason to play a warrior over the other classes. As well as "fix" the highest-survivability class issue in the game that is DS rogues. Annoying to fight and near unkillable because they all walk around with 400+ hps. I've always thought a stab war between rogues should be final not a casual tease.

I'd propose all Hunters/Fades get max con of 18 and max HP of 380, all Rogues a max con of 17 and max HP of 350 while Warriors then become the only class with 19 con and a max HP of 420. This would mean lower regen for Hunters and Rogues and the highest for Warriors. With all prerolled stats being super stats, I think it'd be only normal that we also slice into the HP and make it more standard as well. This would make the playing field more even for all classes. Rogues would stab people dead rather than crit-beat-batt-wounded! and hunters would continue to be amazing but with less hp so they wouldn't be able to draw out fights eternally anymore and Warriors would be relevant. And the game needs warriors! They are the bread and butter of PK and currently we're all out of bread and butter.

So to recap;
- Combo equipment overperforms and lacks tactical decision making sacrifices
- Combo weapons + equipment need to be balanced so that a ceiling of deffence is respected (weapons and/or armor need to give less deffence for both regular and heavy combo sets)
- Abs/Warrior class needs reviewing, either up abs weapons, up abs %, give warriors gaidin regen, cap HPS, something

Note: The numbers used above for deffence and HP aren't in written in cement but more to give a general idea. Feel free to suggest your own.

Aira wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:39 am

reil wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:00 am

Not if it applies retroactively, that'd be a big part of any major overhaul to point distribution system. But I'll tally one for 'jerking off to our zero-effort-botted or reroll-cheated stats in perpetuity' for posterity.

Yeah, I was assuming this. Just like with trolloc homelands, one day you'd log on to having to choose new stats. I'd say that IF we were to go that way, it should also display the hps rolls for our new con, not that you pick 18 con and end up with 350 hps. *glares at the one 19 19 18 I statted which flunked horrendously*

Yeah, that's sort of what I was thinking too -- log on, you're in Co*, choose your stats and they're yours until you opt to reset. When you reset, you choose your new stats in addition to your new practices. You'd need to normalize floor/ceiling HPs on con so rank 8s can't just reprac until they get stupid stats. Or just make it reset on PK rips exclusively, you'll have 5 minutes to think long and hard about your stats.

Can anyone confirm or deny that the bonus rank damage is mitigated by abs?

ABS vs multiple masters with combo rares does feel very bad, vs another abser doesn't feel too far off though...

After a little bit of testing just now, abs doesn't seem to mitigate rank damage from what I can surmise...just had a 16 str r6 channie consistently doing 3 dmg against my freshly mended abs, despite wielding a 1d2 pickaxe.

Not surprising though, people have been wondering this for awhile I think

EDIT: see also https://forums.wotmud.info/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=19205 where I seem to take dmg despite not being hit