I would like to know what prompted this change? Do we really have a lot of masters that made it via PVE? I’m completely out of my element south of FD.
Perhaps a good balance would be leave all rank 7s alone but implement the rank 8 policy. Needing 750 to get rank 8. So if some rank 7 guy is aiming to kill cute brown deer and RP to rank 8(I’m assuming that’s how you do it without PKing) they will have to enter the fray.
Again, I’m assuming this policy is so more people are PKing keeping all parts of the game going? Otherwise I’m lost.
Retroactive punitive policies
Re: Retroactive punitive policies
I will give this a shot.
As a primary Pker who has played this game for over 25 yrs, I have a few vantage points to this. In my younger years, I was driven by trying to become the best pker I could be. I would go into every session with anything I could grab from the ground and pk. Smobbing was the worst! It took hours to get a pair of greaves or a burnished breastplate. I was not getting entertained into the atmosphere of PVE or friendships of the smob groups. It was a tool to help me get back in the saddle of PK. Looking back I wish I did work on those friendships. However, I gained certain friendships on the battlefront of PK. AS I got older, I was a little more mellow and involved in helping others and help friends master/fade/etc. Still not too much into the PVE. Now at 40, trying to play the game with kids and lack of dedicated time (playing more at leisure), I dont mind doing some PVE or hanging out with people and laughing it up in a group. It's more a hangout sometimes. I still pk a lot, but I dont have to pk all the time. Almost like music... i couldn't stand country music when i was younger but now i can actually listen to it. WTF?
Anyways - The coolest thing about wotmud is that there is not one way to play it. There are so many aspects built by great staff who may have been visionaries on how to keep people logged in for the longest possible time. The PK is second to none vs actual video games. I would hope everyone can dabble into everything. However, I dont think we should be trying to pigeon whole people into playing the way certain people or staff want them to. I will stand firm that WE need more people playing the game, not less. However, some of the changes of recent years seem to be reactionary that has a negative impact on the people choosing to play. The consistent gripes and berating of players who play a certain way is a major problem in this game and in its public discourse. I have been a part of it at times and know I am not the most helpful in some cases with it. But this thread is basically the perfect example how divided the last few players of the player base is. Imagine if there is a "new" player reading this. What a dung show would be the thoughts.
Lastly, personally coming from the hospitality business of things. I would never want a customer to leave unhappy or pissed off. I would do anything in my power to give them a great experience or make it right at whatever it realistically costs. It seems that this game is treated with the opposite approach. It's kind of like, my dung is great and if ya don't like it, firetruck off, we got other customers. Terrible approach. If I had a program that you could be a VIP after 1000 reward pts(Get extra perks), Platinum VIP at 3000 Reward Pts(Even more perks) but then I realized you weren't getting alcohol helping my bartenders. Instead of fixing the VIP program going forward, I go to the guest and tell them what I did wrong, what's the new expectation, and that you would not receive rewards pts on your next visits until you pony up and get 250 alcohol drinks to prove you can get the best of both worlds. I don't think my return rate would be great.
I get we have volunteers here. But we really are making more checks and balances and work for yourselves, no?
Re: Retroactive punitive policies
I'm still not clear on what perk associated with 1000 QPs or 3000 QPs you're missing by not fulfilling this requirement if you already have them. For everyone else, it is a "going forward" requirement for a master quest. The ability to PVE for QPs has never been something associated with being a specific rank, afaik.
QPs via PK, QPs for RP, and QPs via PVE all seem to be considered separate systems and if you feel like there needs to be conditions on accessing any of those systems for future QPs not-yet-gained, that's not actually taking anything away that's already been earned via that system - it's just changing the price of admission going forward. Like, you get to keep what you got out of the previous iteration of the systems (QPs, rank, etc.), but here's what you need to do to access it going forward. That is how changes to systems on this game have generally worked, whatever the flaws or virtues of the previous iteration were.
I think the underscore is this: it doesn't really matter. This immediately read like a last gasp of WoTMUD randomly deciding several years too late that PVP needs to be a part of its core identity and needs to be a requirement to advance most character types. That's kind of weird timing-wise, but I think the reaction some people are having to such a fundamentally low bar for it (while counting progress made, in most cases, over multiple years and excluding almost every clan that you'd imagine actually fits the bill from the requirement) is also pretty weird.
That being said, I can take a stab at summarizing actual questions relevant to all non-Wisdom, Gleeman, Illuminator, KMG, and Aes Sedai (?) characters:
1) Is it unreasonable to have 25% of the QPs (25 scalps, 250 QPs) required to master come from PK?
2) Is it unreasonable to have 25% of the QPs (75 scalps, 750 QPs) required to get rank 8 come from PK?
3) Is it unreasonable to require 25 scalps worth of QPs (past and/or future) for current masters to access an end game of unlimited on-demand QPs?
4) Is it unreasonable to require 75 scalps worth of QPs (past and/or future) for current rank 8s to access an end game of unlimited on-demand QPs?
(The DS stuff is whatever - I don't actually know if it's even possible not to have your 75% of your QPs come from PK or TP turn-ins on that side -- does not appear to be drawing a distinction between craftable TPs and PK TPs, so this is largely irrelevant.)
QPs via PK, QPs for RP, and QPs via PVE all seem to be considered separate systems and if you feel like there needs to be conditions on accessing any of those systems for future QPs not-yet-gained, that's not actually taking anything away that's already been earned via that system - it's just changing the price of admission going forward. Like, you get to keep what you got out of the previous iteration of the systems (QPs, rank, etc.), but here's what you need to do to access it going forward. That is how changes to systems on this game have generally worked, whatever the flaws or virtues of the previous iteration were.
I think the underscore is this: it doesn't really matter. This immediately read like a last gasp of WoTMUD randomly deciding several years too late that PVP needs to be a part of its core identity and needs to be a requirement to advance most character types. That's kind of weird timing-wise, but I think the reaction some people are having to such a fundamentally low bar for it (while counting progress made, in most cases, over multiple years and excluding almost every clan that you'd imagine actually fits the bill from the requirement) is also pretty weird.
That being said, I can take a stab at summarizing actual questions relevant to all non-Wisdom, Gleeman, Illuminator, KMG, and Aes Sedai (?) characters:
1) Is it unreasonable to have 25% of the QPs (25 scalps, 250 QPs) required to master come from PK?
2) Is it unreasonable to have 25% of the QPs (75 scalps, 750 QPs) required to get rank 8 come from PK?
3) Is it unreasonable to require 25 scalps worth of QPs (past and/or future) for current masters to access an end game of unlimited on-demand QPs?
4) Is it unreasonable to require 75 scalps worth of QPs (past and/or future) for current rank 8s to access an end game of unlimited on-demand QPs?
(The DS stuff is whatever - I don't actually know if it's even possible not to have your 75% of your QPs come from PK or TP turn-ins on that side -- does not appear to be drawing a distinction between craftable TPs and PK TPs, so this is largely irrelevant.)
Re: Retroactive punitive policies
I'm interested to see which people you think were raising questions and concerns and weren't being toxic about it. Harker who straight up insulted the volunteer staff? Or is this satire? None of the posts that have legitimate concerns/solutions have even been responded to. Yes I am aware that most of them were after your post*Sarinda wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2024 8:22 pmHalf of the people in this thread are trying to raise questions and concerns about a policy change, and the other half are mocking or invalidating them. The latter are adding to a toxic environment that has grown in this community as more people have left, and it really should not be tolerated at all.
In a vacuum, this change feels fine and really isn’t a big ask for the majority of this player base, and I appreciate that it was done with an eye for fairness and not removing any bonuses for people who already earned them. Elysia’s points are fair and many people here agree that PK is the heart of what makes this game successful.
My concern is what Gok already tastefully noted: I think this policy change would be more palatable if it were delivered in tandem with an update from staff about how they feel this change will help grow the game, their vision for what it will accomplish, or other changes down the road that it would enable (like, say, revamps to master or R8 bonuses or LS remorts).
As it stands, this has added more checks and balances and introduced no tangible benefits to the players, so it makes perfect sense that people who don’t like to PK are going to see this as a restriction on how they want to play. And even if only 2-3 people stop playing because it removes a pathway to the accomplishments they want to achieve, that is roughly 10% of our active current community. That is not insignificant and it concerns me.
This change is also fine outside of a vacuum. It's 25 scalps. Not kills, scalps. AND the change is different for Sedai AND the change is different for RP clans AND you aren't getting your r7/8 taken away if you already have it.
Anyone who quits or claims they are going to quit over this change or uses the "enjoy your dead game" bit is both incredibly out of touch and likely going to quit over something else. This also isn't the hospitality industry and these aren't customers or drinks we are talking about. These are people that are fully aware they are logging onto a FREE game with open pvp in it. A game that, as far as I'm aware, for most of its lifespan has been entirely about advancement SOLELY through pvp.
Now, I don't care that people can advance through PVE. I was in the process of doing it myself when this came through. I'm just not the type of person to throw a tantrum when a bar gets moved. Especially when it's in a reasonable direction. (See: pvp in pvp game) I also don't have people I automatically disagree with when they speak because of grudges.
YOU CAN ALSO STILL PVE FOR 75% OF YOUR QPS IN THE EFFECTED CLANS
Re: Retroactive punitive policies
Been on and off here since about 2000/01 and for every 6-7/10 players that quit, the reason-line can usually be directly drawn right back to PK and PK-shoving changes like this, the logic (or lack of) behind it, the playstyles it encourages and personalities it draws in.
When I checked in a few years back, the year after the big Dragon chain of global quests and events, that saw the player numbers go from 4 to 40, and up to 50-60, it seemed to me that focusing on the PvE and WoT RP brought all those people back, and PK just happened. It happened due to people being around, because there were other things to do, and then if PK started, those who wanted it, participated, those who didn't, simply didn't.
Not rocket science.
As for the "if you want to progress, there's clans for that" - why should people join a clan they don't want to, because for some dumb reason, they cant progress in another clan, a clan with absolutely no PK related bonuses, unless they PK? What kind of QOL change is that?
Say someone is really a fan of Far Madding in WoT, and they want to be a Wall Guard. Is treating Wall Guard almost as equally as what...hand-held clans like Black Talon and Wolfbros...the way to go? You want to master, progress for what is essentially THE endgame on LS, you must get X amount of PK QPs, otherwise you do not get to make the character you want, with the RP or playstyle you want.
So much of WoT world itself was butchered for sake of PK as well. Changes made that can all be traced back to "because of PK". Why bother keeping the game WoT themed? The whole "legal shield" of "we got RJs approval letter".
Or even better, once again - DM Mud! Imagine all the admin BS that no one would have to deal with. The zone changes, the stinky PvE, the horrible RP...you got Keep, Caem, Falme, a few more zones, spawn in, Guardian issues a set, go out, PK, win or die, rinse and repeat. Don't even have to smack 101 mobs in hopes someone gets tired of reading narrs "halp, someone wants to PK!" because it'll be a game for PKers only. As is the wish and intention.
"Spirit of the game" - seems like a weird argument considering how much work and effort was put into making it WoT themed, setting RP rules for clans like Tower etc. Almost as if the spirit is not only to PK and get PKed. How much did the countless idiotic patrols help PK? Log on, theres PK, one side hugs a fairly buff patrol, other side gets low, runs to their patrol, rinse and repeat, until someone get's annoyed, does something dumb, or miraculously a few friends log on to vulture kills! Whaaat, no way, I'm sold, what fun...
Are clans going to get RPQPs requirements to progress? Remorts too?
I mean DS remorts are the PK endgame, sure, but they should also have some RP requirements like Aes Sedai have, and maybe Gaidin (not sure tbh, I assume to some lesser extend they do if bonded)?
Not QPs from RP, like RP Kudos etc. but the RPQPS Elysia implemented a while back.
I think Fades should RP being leaders, Dreadlords as well, keeping the dumb trollocs under the Dark Ones boot and all that.
Wolfbrothers too, I mean Wolfies are one of the most interesting parts of WoT world. Perrins story arc is very interesting. I don't think I've ever seen anyone RP with a WB, in fact, I don't think I've seen that many people trying to keep RP within WoT (whichever turn of the Wheel) when it comes to that.
For those who love channies, Kin as well. Not a whole lot of RP between Tower and Kin in true spirit of WoT either.
Any RPQPs requirements to progress there? No....?
1) Is it unreasonable to have 25% of the QPs required to master come from RP, and another 25% from PvE?
2) Is it unreasonable to have 25% of the QPs required to get rank 8 come from RP, and another 25% from PvE?
3) Is it unreasonable to require however many RPQPs (past and/or future) for current masters to access an end game of unlimited on-demand QPs, and another 25% from PvE?
4) Is it unreasonable to require however many RPQPs (past and/or future) for current rank 8s to access an end game of unlimited on-demand QPs, and another 25% from PvE?
You cannot avoid PK on this game. Not 100% of the time. Plenty of recent logs prove that thronerooms, buff patrols, buff cities, even clan rooms are not "safe areas". Those who know how to, can and are willing to, will find you and shove PK in your face. Your playstyle, your time, your fun all be damned. It's not important. Only PK.
You can emote at people, try to strike up RP conversations, people can ignore you. Even use the Ignore command. Nothing will happen to them. They can move on, do whatever it is they wanna do. Kill you, kill someone else. You cannot shove RP and/or PvE in anyones face.
I also remember people throwing out the argument that rank and rank bonuses, have almost no effect on PK, as it's 99% about skill. Which is proven time and time again. Hell, I'm even proof of that, with R8 and on non-masters, I'm mediocre at best. And I'm not always "at best". Bonuses don't do dung for PK.
Is that no longer the case, and it's an issue if people play the game by not actively paricipating in PK?
Guess it's back to times of spam scalping, playing dumb games "who has the scalp", more admin work if Staff decides to micromanage turn ins to check if someone was fair to turn it in or if scalp should've been shared. Wonder how that will work on DS where remorts usually have the right to the scalp simply by being remorts. I mean, unless RP rules are thrown out of the gate....
TPs are at an all time low, right? Ta, Re, Sei lists, all very, very low TP requirements to get on. So assuming PK Qps are also from TPs, even thought certain PvE does award TPs, thats a long, long, long, long and tedious grind to rank, on an ancient game, with traditional lack of balance, absolute dogshit code situation and countless bandaids with mobol.
The fact that PK needs to be shoved this much, again and again, and it keeps resulting in these reactions, should tell you something...but this game is clearly cursed.
Of all the issues this game has, that this is a change that you felt necessary to implement is beyond mind boggling.
Just pull the plug already.
Log on Flash, or contact Flash, He Who Is Above Communicating With Those Who Play His Pet Project For Decades And Holds The Code As If It Is The Origins Of BitCoin, and close it. Open DM Mud if PK is such a high for the handful of people who think PK on a game like this is the greatest dung ever.
Player retention is clearly not happening here, the Great Return of the Playerbase a few years back was clearly just a fluke, so unless you have another Dragon up your sleeve or something else, as well as a smidge of reason left to stop shoving PK down everyone's throat, why bother? Genuinely curious - where's the enjoyment?
Is there some solid analysis, that maybe you can share, that points to this being the best thing you could've done for the game and playerbase, both current and potentially future ones (returning or new)?
Or just loging on your mortals, being bored because there's no one Blight, FD, Andor, Lug, and getting mad, so then you jump on Imms, or in Imm Discord and plot how can you make your fun the only fun that everyone (or almost everyone) has to participate in?
Or are we not allowed to ask this, in this way, because you're all volunteers and we should all be grateful beyond all reason, that this is the stuff you chose to do, after all the unfinished changes, the years old requests from players for various things, and the years and years of complaining to players just what a pain in the Immortal ass it is to do this kind of admin work and checking QPs and all that?
The game being free has nothing to do with this, whatsoever. "Not a hospitality industry" is also a dumb argument. It's a game, games require players. Call the players or customers or clients, doesn't matter. You don't have any - you don't succeed in any way, and just have an empty space that no one wants to be in, other than you and your bartenders.
Saying people throw a tantrum because of a dung change is a "nice" way of shutting people up because any response to that is just "throwing another tantrum", a change the playerbase was not consulted on in any way (as the game does not exist without both Staff and players).
In a way that is very traditional of this game which can be somewhat summarized as - "select few enforcing their playstyle and POV of what this game should be, regardless of how it evolved over the years to be more than just Call of WotMUD".
"Anyone who quits or claims they are going to quit over this change or uses the "enjoy your dead game" bit is both incredibly out of touch and likely going to quit over something else." - People are out of touch because their playstyle, their characters, are being shat on by this dumb change, that you also claim not to care about? I mean...ok...not like this dung hasn't happened before, however many times, but sure...out of touch and you don't care. Got it.
DM Mud. The solution to all your, and those who agree with you, problems. Just do it.
No "horror" of plotting city hits for example. The "horror" of RPing an Aes Sedai. The PvE stealing away your precioussssss PK. Worrying if dung is 99% WoT. No more "pointless zones". No tantrums, no grudges, just log on, smack, kill, die, repeat.
When I checked in a few years back, the year after the big Dragon chain of global quests and events, that saw the player numbers go from 4 to 40, and up to 50-60, it seemed to me that focusing on the PvE and WoT RP brought all those people back, and PK just happened. It happened due to people being around, because there were other things to do, and then if PK started, those who wanted it, participated, those who didn't, simply didn't.
Not rocket science.
As for the "if you want to progress, there's clans for that" - why should people join a clan they don't want to, because for some dumb reason, they cant progress in another clan, a clan with absolutely no PK related bonuses, unless they PK? What kind of QOL change is that?
Say someone is really a fan of Far Madding in WoT, and they want to be a Wall Guard. Is treating Wall Guard almost as equally as what...hand-held clans like Black Talon and Wolfbros...the way to go? You want to master, progress for what is essentially THE endgame on LS, you must get X amount of PK QPs, otherwise you do not get to make the character you want, with the RP or playstyle you want.
So much of WoT world itself was butchered for sake of PK as well. Changes made that can all be traced back to "because of PK". Why bother keeping the game WoT themed? The whole "legal shield" of "we got RJs approval letter".
Or even better, once again - DM Mud! Imagine all the admin BS that no one would have to deal with. The zone changes, the stinky PvE, the horrible RP...you got Keep, Caem, Falme, a few more zones, spawn in, Guardian issues a set, go out, PK, win or die, rinse and repeat. Don't even have to smack 101 mobs in hopes someone gets tired of reading narrs "halp, someone wants to PK!" because it'll be a game for PKers only. As is the wish and intention.
"Spirit of the game" - seems like a weird argument considering how much work and effort was put into making it WoT themed, setting RP rules for clans like Tower etc. Almost as if the spirit is not only to PK and get PKed. How much did the countless idiotic patrols help PK? Log on, theres PK, one side hugs a fairly buff patrol, other side gets low, runs to their patrol, rinse and repeat, until someone get's annoyed, does something dumb, or miraculously a few friends log on to vulture kills! Whaaat, no way, I'm sold, what fun...
Are clans going to get RPQPs requirements to progress? Remorts too?
I mean DS remorts are the PK endgame, sure, but they should also have some RP requirements like Aes Sedai have, and maybe Gaidin (not sure tbh, I assume to some lesser extend they do if bonded)?
Not QPs from RP, like RP Kudos etc. but the RPQPS Elysia implemented a while back.
I think Fades should RP being leaders, Dreadlords as well, keeping the dumb trollocs under the Dark Ones boot and all that.
Wolfbrothers too, I mean Wolfies are one of the most interesting parts of WoT world. Perrins story arc is very interesting. I don't think I've ever seen anyone RP with a WB, in fact, I don't think I've seen that many people trying to keep RP within WoT (whichever turn of the Wheel) when it comes to that.
For those who love channies, Kin as well. Not a whole lot of RP between Tower and Kin in true spirit of WoT either.
Any RPQPs requirements to progress there? No....?
1) Is it unreasonable to have 25% of the QPs required to master come from RP, and another 25% from PvE?
2) Is it unreasonable to have 25% of the QPs required to get rank 8 come from RP, and another 25% from PvE?
3) Is it unreasonable to require however many RPQPs (past and/or future) for current masters to access an end game of unlimited on-demand QPs, and another 25% from PvE?
4) Is it unreasonable to require however many RPQPs (past and/or future) for current rank 8s to access an end game of unlimited on-demand QPs, and another 25% from PvE?
You cannot avoid PK on this game. Not 100% of the time. Plenty of recent logs prove that thronerooms, buff patrols, buff cities, even clan rooms are not "safe areas". Those who know how to, can and are willing to, will find you and shove PK in your face. Your playstyle, your time, your fun all be damned. It's not important. Only PK.
You can emote at people, try to strike up RP conversations, people can ignore you. Even use the Ignore command. Nothing will happen to them. They can move on, do whatever it is they wanna do. Kill you, kill someone else. You cannot shove RP and/or PvE in anyones face.
I also remember people throwing out the argument that rank and rank bonuses, have almost no effect on PK, as it's 99% about skill. Which is proven time and time again. Hell, I'm even proof of that, with R8 and on non-masters, I'm mediocre at best. And I'm not always "at best". Bonuses don't do dung for PK.
Is that no longer the case, and it's an issue if people play the game by not actively paricipating in PK?
Guess it's back to times of spam scalping, playing dumb games "who has the scalp", more admin work if Staff decides to micromanage turn ins to check if someone was fair to turn it in or if scalp should've been shared. Wonder how that will work on DS where remorts usually have the right to the scalp simply by being remorts. I mean, unless RP rules are thrown out of the gate....
TPs are at an all time low, right? Ta, Re, Sei lists, all very, very low TP requirements to get on. So assuming PK Qps are also from TPs, even thought certain PvE does award TPs, thats a long, long, long, long and tedious grind to rank, on an ancient game, with traditional lack of balance, absolute dogshit code situation and countless bandaids with mobol.
The fact that PK needs to be shoved this much, again and again, and it keeps resulting in these reactions, should tell you something...but this game is clearly cursed.
Of all the issues this game has, that this is a change that you felt necessary to implement is beyond mind boggling.
Just pull the plug already.
Log on Flash, or contact Flash, He Who Is Above Communicating With Those Who Play His Pet Project For Decades And Holds The Code As If It Is The Origins Of BitCoin, and close it. Open DM Mud if PK is such a high for the handful of people who think PK on a game like this is the greatest dung ever.
Player retention is clearly not happening here, the Great Return of the Playerbase a few years back was clearly just a fluke, so unless you have another Dragon up your sleeve or something else, as well as a smidge of reason left to stop shoving PK down everyone's throat, why bother? Genuinely curious - where's the enjoyment?
Is there some solid analysis, that maybe you can share, that points to this being the best thing you could've done for the game and playerbase, both current and potentially future ones (returning or new)?
Or just loging on your mortals, being bored because there's no one Blight, FD, Andor, Lug, and getting mad, so then you jump on Imms, or in Imm Discord and plot how can you make your fun the only fun that everyone (or almost everyone) has to participate in?
Or are we not allowed to ask this, in this way, because you're all volunteers and we should all be grateful beyond all reason, that this is the stuff you chose to do, after all the unfinished changes, the years old requests from players for various things, and the years and years of complaining to players just what a pain in the Immortal ass it is to do this kind of admin work and checking QPs and all that?
The game being free has nothing to do with this, whatsoever. "Not a hospitality industry" is also a dumb argument. It's a game, games require players. Call the players or customers or clients, doesn't matter. You don't have any - you don't succeed in any way, and just have an empty space that no one wants to be in, other than you and your bartenders.
Saying people throw a tantrum because of a dung change is a "nice" way of shutting people up because any response to that is just "throwing another tantrum", a change the playerbase was not consulted on in any way (as the game does not exist without both Staff and players).
In a way that is very traditional of this game which can be somewhat summarized as - "select few enforcing their playstyle and POV of what this game should be, regardless of how it evolved over the years to be more than just Call of WotMUD".
"Anyone who quits or claims they are going to quit over this change or uses the "enjoy your dead game" bit is both incredibly out of touch and likely going to quit over something else." - People are out of touch because their playstyle, their characters, are being shat on by this dumb change, that you also claim not to care about? I mean...ok...not like this dung hasn't happened before, however many times, but sure...out of touch and you don't care. Got it.
DM Mud. The solution to all your, and those who agree with you, problems. Just do it.
No "horror" of plotting city hits for example. The "horror" of RPing an Aes Sedai. The PvE stealing away your precioussssss PK. Worrying if dung is 99% WoT. No more "pointless zones". No tantrums, no grudges, just log on, smack, kill, die, repeat.
Re: Retroactive punitive policies
Apart from my first post, I think this is probably being taken way out of proportion. There hasn’t been really any retroactive “fuckyouguys” going on.
One of the issues it looks like is the immediate pushback about being responsibly partaking in a clan element. I get it, maybe some of you don’t want to pk. That’s fine. It’s probably not fine when you’re a Shienaran Lancer/Red Eagle/Queen’s Guard/etc and you opt out of even simply defending your city.
I agree, not every fight is manageable, or worth partaking in. In those instances, I agree that you should just say firetruck it. HOWEVER when you’re willing to sit around your city and issue warrants/chase off criminals/narrate about how so and so is a piece of garbage, general clan admin duties, you can also partake in the bare minimum roleplay requirement of defense.
I think there’s probably better ways to go about it. I don’t think everyone HAS to pk ALL THE TIME. It isn’t a feasible argument to say that pk is ruining the game when lack of standards and roleplay mean nothing to players. You can’t say “I want to enjoy the world of wotmud and my clan!” and simultaneously just..ignore core parts of your clan.
The immersive experience argument is faux outrage when player immersion is currently;
1. Log on
2. Type who
3. Farm some mobs for the same infinite amount of gear
4. Call xxx assholemcshitface for showing up and trying to kill you
5. Renting
One of the issues it looks like is the immediate pushback about being responsibly partaking in a clan element. I get it, maybe some of you don’t want to pk. That’s fine. It’s probably not fine when you’re a Shienaran Lancer/Red Eagle/Queen’s Guard/etc and you opt out of even simply defending your city.
I agree, not every fight is manageable, or worth partaking in. In those instances, I agree that you should just say firetruck it. HOWEVER when you’re willing to sit around your city and issue warrants/chase off criminals/narrate about how so and so is a piece of garbage, general clan admin duties, you can also partake in the bare minimum roleplay requirement of defense.
I think there’s probably better ways to go about it. I don’t think everyone HAS to pk ALL THE TIME. It isn’t a feasible argument to say that pk is ruining the game when lack of standards and roleplay mean nothing to players. You can’t say “I want to enjoy the world of wotmud and my clan!” and simultaneously just..ignore core parts of your clan.
The immersive experience argument is faux outrage when player immersion is currently;
1. Log on
2. Type who
3. Farm some mobs for the same infinite amount of gear
4. Call xxx assholemcshitface for showing up and trying to kill you
5. Renting
Re: Retroactive punitive policies
People being forced to work from home because of Covid caused the player increase. Unless you, the rocket scientist, think it was a coincidence that the increased happened right after the pandemic started?Kordin wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 3:13 am
The game being free has nothing to do with this, whatsoever. "Not a hospitality industry" is also a dumb argument. It's a game, games require players. Call the players or customers or clients, doesn't matter. You don't have any - you don't succeed in any way, and just have an empty space that no one wants to be in, other than you and your bartenders.
Saying people throw a tantrum because of a dung change is a "nice" way of shutting people up because any response to that is just "throwing another tantrum", a change the playerbase was not consulted on in any way (as the game does not exist without both Staff and players).
"Anyone who quits or claims they are going to quit over this change or uses the "enjoy your dead game" bit is both incredibly out of touch and likely going to quit over something else." - People are out of touch because their playstyle, their characters, are being shat on by this dumb change, that you also claim not to care about? I mean...ok...not like this dung hasn't happened before, however many times, but sure...out of touch and you don't care. Got it.
No "horror" of plotting city hits for example. The "horror" of RPing an Aes Sedai. The PvE stealing away your precioussssss PK. Worrying if dung is 99% WoT. No more "pointless zones". No tantrums, no grudges, just log on, smack, kill, die, repeat.
The hospitality argument was made by Jaster and I was responding. My "dumb argument" was saying I disagree with him. Players of a free video game are not customers. Period. There is no transaction. The staff is choosing to use their free time to make something. The reason that it DOES matter that it's free is behavior. See, you want it to be like a transaction because then you can treat them likely how you treat people in real life. If it's free however, you just seem like an asshole.
They are throwing a tantrum. I would try to say it nicer but you already said it was the nice way to say it. Would you prefer I not point out what you are doing? Dearest Rocket Man, the point is that when tantrum throwers make long posts with over the top statements like "pull the plug" or "enjoy your ghost game" their argument is lost behind their need for everyone to know how mad they are. That's all.
Just so we are clear, you are saying that 25 scalps* "shits on" your playstyle in a RPPVPVE game, and I'm saying if they added 25% PVE and/or RP requirements to progress, I'd just do them because I'm playing the game anyway. I also understand when I log on that I may be required to RP or PVE or PK. You hate that you may have to do one of those things?
I left the "horror" bit in because it amused me. My playtime today was: Log on my Sedai to see what was going on with the general goal of "get qps". Kazi got scouted. PK up north with DS ending up hitting in the city. Got super lucky a couple times and landed a kill. Then RP'd for a while with an Accepted (can post the log if you're interested). Came back later in the day, did a couple dailies and logged back off. This is why you are out of touch. The people on this side of the fence aren't coming for your sacred PVE qps, and if they are, they are wrong. We are just saying that it should maybe, at a minimum, be somewhat expected that you will need to PK in a game that has been primarily PK focused for 20 of its 25 years. Or a better way to put it: chortlesnorfling relax and be flexible.
Re: Retroactive punitive policies
A reasonable compromise seems to be any retroactive audits do not de-rank the character, and only remove any rank related bonus/perk.
They are still the character they were, they still have the role in their clan. 25 scalps is not a large amount should they truly desire the perks they had again.
Rather easy to justify RP wise too. You do not fight, you're out of shape, your edge has been lost, if you ever even had it. Go forth.
They are still the character they were, they still have the role in their clan. 25 scalps is not a large amount should they truly desire the perks they had again.
Rather easy to justify RP wise too. You do not fight, you're out of shape, your edge has been lost, if you ever even had it. Go forth.
Re: Retroactive punitive policies
No one is getting de-ranked or having their bonuses removed. You can even come back from rank 0 and be re-ranked right to where you were. The only thing that is being restricted is someone's ability to gain qps through pve going forward.Meren wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 5:22 amA reasonable compromise seems to be any retroactive audits do not de-rank the character, and only remove any rank related bonus/perk.
They are still the character they were, they still have the role in their clan. 25 scalps is not a large amount should they truly desire the perks they had again.
Rather easy to justify RP wise too. You do not fight, you're out of shape, your edge has been lost, if you ever even had it. Go forth.
Suppose you have a char who is 15 scalps short of the mark, you will get a mail that you're short of the mark, you will retain your master status and all bonuses and... pve rewarding mobol simply stops working for you until you have gotten the pk scalps. At which point you can just ping an imm, they audit you, flag you and pve rewards start working again. You can get all the way to 3k qps, but you will not be ranked to rank 8, nor receive the bonuses, until you also have the scalps for that.
And yes, I agree, it's something that should've been done years ago. If we had, we'd probably have less polarized groups and more well-rounded players and people staying on for longer, as well. A few months ago I was running around with a friend and we smobbed, pked and rped in the same session. We joked it was the holy trifecta of gameplay, it was pretty awesome.
Also, Kordin, the spike in players was absolutely due to covid, it went up in late March/April 2020, right when lockdowns hit the globe. Players have been saying "shut it down", "it's dying" and "I quit" for well over 20 years of imming. If "things players say" was a drinking game, everyone who had ever immed would need a new liver. It's impossible take seriously because it's just like RL: you can't please everyone and we make decisions on what we think is best for the game long-term. And as I've said in this thread, I've been saying for years that well-rounded players are what's best for the game. Just like the game was a shell of itself when the Hall was disbanded and practically all RPers had vanished, so too will it be a shell of itself if there is no pk. WoTmud is all those aspects and so much more.
Re: Retroactive punitive policies
I've tried to take a holistic approach to the game. That has meant the introduction of PvE advancement paths and an RP progression path with unique benefits.
PvE progression was meant to supplement existing gameplay, not supplant it. This is an update that addresses an issue we've tried to find a solution to for years, that being that we want players up participate in all aspects of the game.
Mobility increases were so people saw more of the game, heralds and dailies for PvE, RP progression for roleplay and for players not interested in a clan path we added things like crafting and the market hall with requirements for all of these things bringing them into PvP areas and adjacents as often as possible. Other changes have been made with similar intent, bring more people to the table and get them to try different things than they usually would. Try to create overlap. This change is to put some pointed focus back onto PvP, which I feel is a necessary update to a series of changes we've made over the years.
As it stands currently, this affects less ran one person per two clans. It's not a punishment, it is an incentive for characters who have utilized all the new means of advancement that we've added to the game to participate in PvP. It is an indicator to people looking to master that we want them to PvP as well. We audit every master candidate's quest point sources, and we feel excitement and validation when seeing someone with quest points coming from PvE, PvP and RP. It's exciting to see someone enjoying all of the world you're investing yourself into building and maintaining. This isn't about us however, it's about having as many multifaceted players as possible because that's healthy for the game. After years of trying to figure out how to address getting people to PvP a confluence of ideas landed us here, and I believe it's a very reasonable and absolutely necessary step.
PvE progression was meant to supplement existing gameplay, not supplant it. This is an update that addresses an issue we've tried to find a solution to for years, that being that we want players up participate in all aspects of the game.
Mobility increases were so people saw more of the game, heralds and dailies for PvE, RP progression for roleplay and for players not interested in a clan path we added things like crafting and the market hall with requirements for all of these things bringing them into PvP areas and adjacents as often as possible. Other changes have been made with similar intent, bring more people to the table and get them to try different things than they usually would. Try to create overlap. This change is to put some pointed focus back onto PvP, which I feel is a necessary update to a series of changes we've made over the years.
As it stands currently, this affects less ran one person per two clans. It's not a punishment, it is an incentive for characters who have utilized all the new means of advancement that we've added to the game to participate in PvP. It is an indicator to people looking to master that we want them to PvP as well. We audit every master candidate's quest point sources, and we feel excitement and validation when seeing someone with quest points coming from PvE, PvP and RP. It's exciting to see someone enjoying all of the world you're investing yourself into building and maintaining. This isn't about us however, it's about having as many multifaceted players as possible because that's healthy for the game. After years of trying to figure out how to address getting people to PvP a confluence of ideas landed us here, and I believe it's a very reasonable and absolutely necessary step.