Per the round table discussion, I'm thinking about how we can give people more to do in the mud in addition to dailies and heralds.
Every night after boot, someone asks whether Baerlon is LS/DS. This is because Baerlon is a good group activity for everyone, a way for non-pkers to get qps, and a way for players to affect the "status" of the world.
Here's a suggestion that came up in discussion with a friend today - what if all CTF cities (Baerlon, Kandori Fort, Jehannah) start DS or SS after every boot?
This motivates LS to flip them, giving something interesting to do each day. DS is a pk-focused side and doesn't do CTF cities often (Kandori Fort has been LS for months, for example) and SS doesn't have the numbers to flip Jehannah.
Kandori Fort would need to be changed to award QPs if it doesn't already, probably more than Baerlon given it's location and difficulty.
Suggestion for CTF Cities
Re: Suggestion for CTF Cities
For a while that was the "desired" goal as stated in the announcements when they made baerlon randomize who held it each day on boot, then on January 8th, it got removed for some reason with the announcement about it quietly disappearing (which would be good if it was consistent to keep outdated info from circulating). Currently baerlon still loads double mobs after reboot which makes the first hit much harder to do, and since its usually LS then it becomes extremely hard for undersized ds or ss to kill a patty with 10 or 12 mobs in the head of the watch's room. I suspect someone has noticed that issue and has been attempting to flip it to ds right before boot for that reason.
Jehannah is doable for smaller groups as well with a handful of different strategies, but you have to be very careful now that the repop timer got halved on it so that if you have to regen a couple times before finishing then you need to time when you use the 2nd to last key right after a repop since only a large group (typically 4-5 with unspecialized setups) can clear all the patrols in under 45 mins.
But yeah it would be nice to have more pve stuff available, I often see theres nothing to do and just log off, or see groups die out fast after certain daily events finish because theres nothing else to do. The problem is how to balance it though, as theres a vast difference between how efficient someone who knows exactly what to do (or someone who has a smash group of 7 people with either gate or refresh) can be compared to a normal group of 3 who dont have the specifics mastered. So if you balance it around the normal group to earn 2 quest points each in 2 hours of gameplay, then a smash group or hyper-efficient smobbers can do that in 10 minutes and then log off because theres nothing else to do. Or if you balance it around the smash-group then it never gets done because its very difficult to find a large group where EVERY person involved has the time and inclination to do it (its very easy to find a large group of people able to get together for a short 15 min trip with guaranteed qps, but everyone has a different cutoff for when the reward is not worth the time involved, which is why the "old jafar" that was before quest points very rarely had groups but the jafar with the quest points and more rares had groups going multiple times a day even though it took close to an hour, since without the quest points there was usually only 2-3 people who wanted to do it which was not enough to actually do it, and the newer version was lucrative enough almost everyone wanted in)
So how do you balance it? old heralds didnt work because it was way too easy for someone who knew what they were doing to hit all 4 heralds in an hour and snatch up almost 10 qps for each person in the group, and it made it way too easy to master, new heralds are good for a small group to do something that day, but smash groups just meet for a few minutes and then are done with nothing else to do. city flips are impossible if theres too small of a group/wrong setups, and incredibly easy for large groups to get extra qps fast, local smobs are a step in the right direction but I dont think ive been in a group of five or more that didnt have at LEAST one person permanently bugged so they didnt get any award, and % chance on quest points is a very low motivator for most people anyways (a system like the RPkudos would work amazing for this, as you could eliminate the daily limit that bugs out such a high % of the people, and have it award a point every time you kill a local smob with the corresponding clan member, and once you get x amount of points you can turn it in for a qp, you could go further with this by adding a bunch of ctf forts that also awarded those same partial qp points).
Alternatively, being able to do every herald per day but each one only giving 1 qp could keep smash groups going for four times as long and still not over-reward those who can do it efficiently, and requiring them to know a lot more smobs and mixing things up more.
A fun way that would almost assuredly require coding would be to randomize where each smob loaded every day (similar to ways exits or which herald is that day). that way a group cant just log on right away and do it super fast if one person was skilled, a group FULL of skilled people could still split up all the spots to check and wouldnt take that long, but it means that one person cant just carry everyone for super fast qps as easily. It would also make things more interesting, forcing players who build an efficient routine to mix things up a bit.
Jehannah is doable for smaller groups as well with a handful of different strategies, but you have to be very careful now that the repop timer got halved on it so that if you have to regen a couple times before finishing then you need to time when you use the 2nd to last key right after a repop since only a large group (typically 4-5 with unspecialized setups) can clear all the patrols in under 45 mins.
But yeah it would be nice to have more pve stuff available, I often see theres nothing to do and just log off, or see groups die out fast after certain daily events finish because theres nothing else to do. The problem is how to balance it though, as theres a vast difference between how efficient someone who knows exactly what to do (or someone who has a smash group of 7 people with either gate or refresh) can be compared to a normal group of 3 who dont have the specifics mastered. So if you balance it around the normal group to earn 2 quest points each in 2 hours of gameplay, then a smash group or hyper-efficient smobbers can do that in 10 minutes and then log off because theres nothing else to do. Or if you balance it around the smash-group then it never gets done because its very difficult to find a large group where EVERY person involved has the time and inclination to do it (its very easy to find a large group of people able to get together for a short 15 min trip with guaranteed qps, but everyone has a different cutoff for when the reward is not worth the time involved, which is why the "old jafar" that was before quest points very rarely had groups but the jafar with the quest points and more rares had groups going multiple times a day even though it took close to an hour, since without the quest points there was usually only 2-3 people who wanted to do it which was not enough to actually do it, and the newer version was lucrative enough almost everyone wanted in)
So how do you balance it? old heralds didnt work because it was way too easy for someone who knew what they were doing to hit all 4 heralds in an hour and snatch up almost 10 qps for each person in the group, and it made it way too easy to master, new heralds are good for a small group to do something that day, but smash groups just meet for a few minutes and then are done with nothing else to do. city flips are impossible if theres too small of a group/wrong setups, and incredibly easy for large groups to get extra qps fast, local smobs are a step in the right direction but I dont think ive been in a group of five or more that didnt have at LEAST one person permanently bugged so they didnt get any award, and % chance on quest points is a very low motivator for most people anyways (a system like the RPkudos would work amazing for this, as you could eliminate the daily limit that bugs out such a high % of the people, and have it award a point every time you kill a local smob with the corresponding clan member, and once you get x amount of points you can turn it in for a qp, you could go further with this by adding a bunch of ctf forts that also awarded those same partial qp points).
Alternatively, being able to do every herald per day but each one only giving 1 qp could keep smash groups going for four times as long and still not over-reward those who can do it efficiently, and requiring them to know a lot more smobs and mixing things up more.
A fun way that would almost assuredly require coding would be to randomize where each smob loaded every day (similar to ways exits or which herald is that day). that way a group cant just log on right away and do it super fast if one person was skilled, a group FULL of skilled people could still split up all the spots to check and wouldnt take that long, but it means that one person cant just carry everyone for super fast qps as easily. It would also make things more interesting, forcing players who build an efficient routine to mix things up a bit.
Re: Suggestion for CTF Cities
I like Ibzon's ideas a lot.
On a partially related note, I've said before that some kind of CTF fort, or series of small CTF forts, in the heart of the Borderlands for LS and DS to fight over would add an interesting dynamic to PK and also could award small amounts of QP once per day or something. Like the remnants of the Seven Towers of Malkier for example, or some of the Kandori towers that we see in the prologue for Towers of Midnight. Putting it in a PK zone would mean that it could help lead to more PK while also allowing the PvE focused players to have an option for something to hit.
On a partially related note, I've said before that some kind of CTF fort, or series of small CTF forts, in the heart of the Borderlands for LS and DS to fight over would add an interesting dynamic to PK and also could award small amounts of QP once per day or something. Like the remnants of the Seven Towers of Malkier for example, or some of the Kandori towers that we see in the prologue for Towers of Midnight. Putting it in a PK zone would mean that it could help lead to more PK while also allowing the PvE focused players to have an option for something to hit.
Re: Suggestion for CTF Cities
There are a few problems with the CTF cities when it comes to useful pvp value:
1 - Lack of strategic value. they are out of the way and can be largely ignored. it's at best an extra place to run back to for support in the event that your side owns.
2 - They have one gate entering, making falling back to it nearly a DT vs larger groups.
3 - lack of a forewarning of another side attempting the take over to contest it, and the free exit (baerlon) upon flipping means the attackers have a free escape from the city.
to address #1 & #2, the CTF cities need to be right in the middle of the road, blocking the road, and with multiple gates. Similar to how Caemlyn's long cut around the outskirts south and around to get to the road north, or going from north of FD to west of FD. You can go around them... but that will involve spending a bunch of extra mvs to go around, possibly involving a search door and some dismount/lead action -- but for those who own the city, a much shorter and simpler path exists.
For #3, once the gate keeper narrates, if you aren't already staged up and ready to jump them inside the city, or have gate, or several fades to take 1 troll each.... there is no contesting. It was different when blod was right outside, but with the recent change removing that, there is just no way. There isn't enough time, and the methods of getting there generally take too damn long. At best, you can get to the city in time to hit the group right after they finish for some pk action, but that sort of misses the point -- the goal of defending the city and preventing it from being flipped in the first place is mostly a pipe dream.
Baerlon in particular is kind of annoyingly set up -- the doors on the shopkeepers that prevent DS and SS(?) guard mobs from walking in and getting aggrod/killed by the shopkeepers is a jank way to do things, as those doors mean near certain death to a smaller group trying to fall back into the city for protection. The shops and merchant guards always being LS give LS safe spots inside of the DS/SS owned city, making it never a place for DS to willfully run to (other than low mvs in that area as a last ditch effort to survive). I've already mentioned the one gate, and blocking that one gate also blocks the main entry to the non-locked jump exit.
Jehenna is terrible in that the series of 2-exit roads to get to it mean a larger group can rather easily trap a smaller group inside as well. It makes the city a "we can flip this for some qp, but if a larger group shows up to contest then we all die!" sort of gamble. Not that those are necessarily bad things, a highly lucrative pve activity that risks near certain death if the other side is prepared for you taking the bait... The portal stone right outside makes that a costly, but doable endeavor to jump folks doing the flip as it takes a bit of time to clear all the officer patties.
The new Mirk mountains CTF falls into the same category -- a bit far off the beaten path, chokey area in, and all mob support is behind a door. There is literally no reason to run there as a pk fall back (unless you would be ran hagg and dead otherwise), as you being trapped in there means the other side is calling for more to join as you turn into a nearly guaranteed kill for them.
In any case, an area out of the way and risky in that they are too far to run to safety without vials should not be what "CTF city" moniker should follow. A "CTF city" should be in the center of the area, and provide mob support to the side who owns it, perhaps some shops that have unusually high amounts of coin to buy crap, and provide strategic value in a pk area to where a person fighting outnumbered would *want* to run to or through the CTF city vice bypassing it entirely.
1 - Lack of strategic value. they are out of the way and can be largely ignored. it's at best an extra place to run back to for support in the event that your side owns.
2 - They have one gate entering, making falling back to it nearly a DT vs larger groups.
3 - lack of a forewarning of another side attempting the take over to contest it, and the free exit (baerlon) upon flipping means the attackers have a free escape from the city.
to address #1 & #2, the CTF cities need to be right in the middle of the road, blocking the road, and with multiple gates. Similar to how Caemlyn's long cut around the outskirts south and around to get to the road north, or going from north of FD to west of FD. You can go around them... but that will involve spending a bunch of extra mvs to go around, possibly involving a search door and some dismount/lead action -- but for those who own the city, a much shorter and simpler path exists.
For #3, once the gate keeper narrates, if you aren't already staged up and ready to jump them inside the city, or have gate, or several fades to take 1 troll each.... there is no contesting. It was different when blod was right outside, but with the recent change removing that, there is just no way. There isn't enough time, and the methods of getting there generally take too damn long. At best, you can get to the city in time to hit the group right after they finish for some pk action, but that sort of misses the point -- the goal of defending the city and preventing it from being flipped in the first place is mostly a pipe dream.
Baerlon in particular is kind of annoyingly set up -- the doors on the shopkeepers that prevent DS and SS(?) guard mobs from walking in and getting aggrod/killed by the shopkeepers is a jank way to do things, as those doors mean near certain death to a smaller group trying to fall back into the city for protection. The shops and merchant guards always being LS give LS safe spots inside of the DS/SS owned city, making it never a place for DS to willfully run to (other than low mvs in that area as a last ditch effort to survive). I've already mentioned the one gate, and blocking that one gate also blocks the main entry to the non-locked jump exit.
Jehenna is terrible in that the series of 2-exit roads to get to it mean a larger group can rather easily trap a smaller group inside as well. It makes the city a "we can flip this for some qp, but if a larger group shows up to contest then we all die!" sort of gamble. Not that those are necessarily bad things, a highly lucrative pve activity that risks near certain death if the other side is prepared for you taking the bait... The portal stone right outside makes that a costly, but doable endeavor to jump folks doing the flip as it takes a bit of time to clear all the officer patties.
The new Mirk mountains CTF falls into the same category -- a bit far off the beaten path, chokey area in, and all mob support is behind a door. There is literally no reason to run there as a pk fall back (unless you would be ran hagg and dead otherwise), as you being trapped in there means the other side is calling for more to join as you turn into a nearly guaranteed kill for them.
In any case, an area out of the way and risky in that they are too far to run to safety without vials should not be what "CTF city" moniker should follow. A "CTF city" should be in the center of the area, and provide mob support to the side who owns it, perhaps some shops that have unusually high amounts of coin to buy crap, and provide strategic value in a pk area to where a person fighting outnumbered would *want* to run to or through the CTF city vice bypassing it entirely.
Re: Suggestion for CTF Cities
I see no downsides to ctf being non-ls at reboot. LS will want to go there immediately. DS can expect a hit and be prepared to defend, creating pk opportunity. SS...exists.
Re: Suggestion for CTF Cities
I hate it.Ibzon wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2024 8:33 pmPer the round table discussion, I'm thinking about how we can give people more to do in the mud in addition to dailies and heralds.
Every night after boot, someone asks whether Baerlon is LS/DS. This is because Baerlon is a good group activity for everyone, a way for non-pkers to get qps, and a way for players to affect the "status" of the world.
Here's a suggestion that came up in discussion with a friend today - what if all CTF cities (Baerlon, Kandori Fort, Jehannah) start DS or SS after every boot?
This motivates LS to flip them, giving something interesting to do each day. DS is a pk-focused side and doesn't do CTF cities often (Kandori Fort has been LS for months, for example) and SS doesn't have the numbers to flip Jehannah.
Kandori Fort would need to be changed to award QPs if it doesn't already, probably more than Baerlon given it's location and difficulty.
Re: Suggestion for CTF Cities
I think figuring out a reason that would motivate DS to do the CTFs is the more likely route. When they were randomized over reboot you'd have very large groups form to take them with the expectation that it would be the only opportunity to take the CTF, which seems counter to the point of the CTF FWIW.
When the spine CTF came in it was hit pretty frequently, probably a mixture of novelty and the 100% str tea load on every hit. That's died down, maybe because it was made more difficult?
Prykor--your suggestions involve a ton of work, but I do see the point that blocking the gate also blocks the jump exit and doesn't require multiple blocks. This is the case at some cities, but with the mechanics that block the gatekeeper (which is a secondary jump), it may be worth looking at. And maybe worth looking at some of the doors? We removed the herbalist and bank door for similar reasons, but on the same side, it's nice if you're solo as LS to at least have an option that forces the other side to take risks.
To the point of more CTFs and central CTFs. Until the CTFs we have are working in the conceptual way that we want (e.g. being captured), we're not likely to add more.
When the spine CTF came in it was hit pretty frequently, probably a mixture of novelty and the 100% str tea load on every hit. That's died down, maybe because it was made more difficult?
Prykor--your suggestions involve a ton of work, but I do see the point that blocking the gate also blocks the jump exit and doesn't require multiple blocks. This is the case at some cities, but with the mechanics that block the gatekeeper (which is a secondary jump), it may be worth looking at. And maybe worth looking at some of the doors? We removed the herbalist and bank door for similar reasons, but on the same side, it's nice if you're solo as LS to at least have an option that forces the other side to take risks.
To the point of more CTFs and central CTFs. Until the CTFs we have are working in the conceptual way that we want (e.g. being captured), we're not likely to add more.
Re: Suggestion for CTF Cities
100% str tea load!? I need to remember that!Feneon wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 3:40 pmI think figuring out a reason that would motivate DS to do the CTFs is the more likely route. When they were randomized over reboot you'd have very large groups form to take them with the expectation that it would be the only opportunity to take the CTF, which seems counter to the point of the CTF FWIW.
When the spine CTF came in it was hit pretty frequently, probably a mixture of novelty and the 100% str tea load on every hit. That's died down, maybe because it was made more difficult?
I think the main thing with the current CTFs that I dislike, and I believe are the main cause for lack of DS motivation to hit them, is that they are an inherently PVE activity with a thinly veiled guise claiming to be a PK thing, with the main risk being a very one-sided PK scenario from the other side if they catch wind of what you are planning and have bigger numbers -- a risk which rarely materializes, leaving it as generally just another PVE activity. Meanwhile CTF patrols actually are useful for PK (except when they go 5+ rounds in a row without assisting or otherwise attacking the other side)Feneon wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 3:40 pmPrykor--your suggestions involve a ton of work, but I do see the point that blocking the gate also blocks the jump exit and doesn't require multiple blocks. This is the case at some cities, but with the mechanics that block the gatekeeper (which is a secondary jump), it may be worth looking at. And maybe worth looking at some of the doors? We removed the herbalist and bank door for similar reasons, but on the same side, it's nice if you're solo as LS to at least have an option that forces the other side to take risks.
To the point of more CTFs and central CTFs. Until the CTFs we have are working in the conceptual way that we want (e.g. being captured), we're not likely to add more.
A lot of the folks who play DS do so almost exclusively for PK, and will begrudgingly flip a CTF city if they are already in the area and there are no signs of life around elsewhere, but wouldn't otherwise go out of their way to do so. I think the STR tea load is a fantastic addition, and something that can incentivize folks a bit (at the very least, it will drive me to request hitting spine CTF more often).
And outside of the CTF city's PVE aspect, there is no reason to visit the city other than to check who owns it -- no shops (baerlon shops are always LS aligned), no strategic value as a general purpose fallback area for pk, and no useful forewarning that gives enough of a heads-up to mount a defense to prevent capture (combined with the layout that leads to one-sided smash pk, which means if you don't have numbers to easily win then there is no point in attempting).
I believe the restructuring the CTF city implementation such that the benefits are gained by owning the city vice the act of flipping it will be healthier in the long term -- increased rewards for flipping just lead to folks hiding from pk and taking turns flipping them back and forth, such as what lead to the "A player may only flip baerlon once per boot and only on one char" rule.
My suggestions are for the most extreme and work intensive version of reworking a zone around a pk city... yes, but I hope it plants a seed as far as things to think about when looking at the concept of what a pk-oriented CTF city should strive for. Obviously much more work than can be expected in the short or medium term for the main CTF cities in the MUD, but something to think about perhaps when creating or reworking holiday zones and such.
Re: Suggestion for CTF Cities
This is a big factor, and part of what I always thought was wierd after you capture a city and still nobody will trade with you and seanchan can't even rent in baerlon if they have an andor warrant (which is automatically applied when the guards in town see you or you flip the city). Something that wouldn't take a complete overhaul but still spike interest could just be adding shops of each side (Like Seanchan sympathizers and Olsen the darkfriend that OBVIOUSLY has no relation to Neslo the shady merchant) and will only buy/sell from their side. Something with like 50-100 crowns that provides incentive to come sell junk to or to kill the opposing shopkeepers. Owning the city then has the benefit of being able to come in and hit the opposing shopkeepers or sell at your own shop while having support if one or two people hit you.
When shopkeepers run their cross-race check does it it run the check against the zone or the mob? I'm assuming its the mob since at least one zone has 2 races of innkeepers unless innkeepers and shopkeepers uses a separate check.
Re: Suggestion for CTF Cities
Prykor makes an interesting point about pk and pve.
The only reason pve gets unbalanced is because of high voltage setups like bonded pairs, which one would imagine are primarily boosted for pk leadership.
I think with people like Draz and to some extent others who combined pk and pve on their main characters, the organic deterant to this imbalance - namely the distance/disdain/dislike pk oriented players and sides had for pve - was disrupted.
Really what makes pk interesting is - players and how they play.
By nature you cannot "code" in things like sportspersonship etc, good feelings that make us enjoy pk - win or lose.
But anyway more pve options is good for something to do / drive some activity.
The only reason pve gets unbalanced is because of high voltage setups like bonded pairs, which one would imagine are primarily boosted for pk leadership.
I think with people like Draz and to some extent others who combined pk and pve on their main characters, the organic deterant to this imbalance - namely the distance/disdain/dislike pk oriented players and sides had for pve - was disrupted.
Really what makes pk interesting is - players and how they play.
By nature you cannot "code" in things like sportspersonship etc, good feelings that make us enjoy pk - win or lose.
But anyway more pve options is good for something to do / drive some activity.