Defender/attacker balance in clan rooms

[glynn]

There was a time when the motto of the game was there is no place safe.

You guys are hilarious. Yes, no place should be safe. In particular, clan rooms inside a city should not be a very safe place for the opposing side. Look at the log. It looks to me like there is less firepower than a basic fade patty, and it's spread across two rooms. In one room, it looks like they don't even aggro, just assist. There are no spammable doors and it's inside a city that was just flipped to ds, so if you get beat up (which ds did not), you can just exit and get some more hps. It is way too safe for attackers, and it is not a reasonable place for a clan member to take a stand. Even if Mush hadn't made it inside, Roberto would have probably died protecting Juilian. It doesn't look like Hodor came in, so it's one clan member sticking around to protect their clan head against 2 and then 3 trollocs, and he goes from Full to dead, Sorvitor ends at Wounded, Meph at Scratched, so that's a bit less than 400 hps lost by the defender and less than 200 hps total lost from those two attackers. Of course dodge vs combo enters into that calculation, and it looks like Rob kind of gave up at the end, but if you hit, I don't know, let me pick a random trolloc rogue, say Jork. If you hit Jork at a fade patty, it takes more hps off your group than that.

In my opinion, clan rooms should be a place an aggressive player can chase and kill a low opponent, and should involve a fair amount of risk for that aggressive player. It shouldn't be a place you can take someone from full to dead as easily as that. This was perhaps an outlier example because TB clan rooms are inside a CTF city, those surroundings make it a particularly weak clan base. If you look at this example and even in this case think buffing TB clan mobs a bit would be counter to the old 'no place is safe' motto, you're not being objective.

To be clear, good kill, and kudos to Roberto for sticking around and defending his clan mobs to the death, but I think those mobs could use some tweaking. My humble player suggestion is that they be adjusted first, and reviewing other clan bases should be added to the project list.

[Dixon]

The worse thing they did was add a way for the other side to just open the door whenever they want. If someone is fast enough to get into their clan rooms it should be SAFER then it is. I threw an absolute fit years ago when I got into library and was sitting there with someone else thinking we made it somewhere safe vs the 6+ who were clearing the zone. Then the words open and door got used in a sentence that was no where near saying open door, but because those two words were used at all in the same sentence the door opened and DS walked in. Then said DS just kept saying Exit repeatedly and opening the door for his friends.

Makes zero sense that crossrace that doesn't speak the same language, and are the literal enemy of the people in the room opening the door, can just open the door whenever they want and come and go as they please. I did end up getting Elysia to add some mobs to Lancer barracks since there was 0 assisting mobs in there and DS "abused the quirk of the game mechanics" to just walk in and kill people with 0 risk.

I do agree no where should be 100% safe, but if you take a risk to hit inside clan rooms that have a knock door/call/w.e command to get into by said clan members. You shouldn't be able to open it if you are not of that clan without killing a mob inside said room to get a key or something to unlock the door. Also bring back Zarthdoor

[mush]

The Roberto death is on him, if he knew they were in the city. Instead of making them 100% safe, or 100% deathtraps, I would suggest an egress method that is guaranteed in all clan rooms for the clanned chars. Something similar to a jump. Not guaranteed for the opposing faction, but still a regular way to exit (pull lantern, sconce, knock door etc..).

This exists and I believe using the second exit is exclusive to the clan. Roberto was never really "trapped" in there.

The whole premise of the original post does not seem to fully appreciate that clan rooms are currently 100% safety providing two things:

1. The mobol closes the door.
2. You do not let someone in.

You're exchanging 100% safety for accomplishing two things that are entirely under your control.

I'm not going to speculate on the the ever-shifting intent of design on this game, but from what I can tell, there was a push at some point to do two distinct things wherever it was practical for clan bases:

1) Remove mobol "pull" clan doors in exchange for doors that open on Clanned's command and allow anyone out. It's the same principle as 'pull sconce' type mobol. For these types of entrances, you can get in with 1 HP, no quit, whatever. The Civil Watch clan base, for example, used to just pull you in rather than just open a door. This seems to be pretty consistent for clan rooms located in cities (I don't know for sure).

2) In (most) cases where the mobol "pull" has to remained, conditions to entry beyond clan flag were added -- % hps, NO QUIT check to get in, etc. This seems pretty consistent for clan rooms located outside of cities and away from other mob support (I don't know for sure).

There's actually one really weird case that does both -- it opens a door (that anyone can get through) *and* pulls you in, but that seems like a (fairly inconsequential, unless the pull works while you're engaged, i haven't tested) oversight.

The point is, there seems to be a specific set of trade-offs for the general safety offered by clan rooms in either of these instances. What they have in common is that they do not seem to treat clan areas like PK zones "to be defended but with more mob support" after baiting people into them. If you opt to use your clan rooms in a situation where someone else can get in, you're essentially opting to turn the room/area into any other door.

So I think the entire premise of the original post assumes that the clan bases are actually meant to be PK zones when every design element seems to suggest they are meant to be relatively safe but not an absolute get-out-of-jail-free card ala engaging a mobol while you're crit/engaged and dipping. If you don't like the potential for others getting into your base, I would lobby for the mobol entrance (I have no idea if it's something you can actually lobby for) -- just be aware that the HP check and/or no quit check is pretty obnoxious too.

[arston]

You all have it nice i dont know what you are complaining about. KMG base is a straight deathtrap. I could easily write some super basic scripts that would let a rank 1 seanchan with the right setup literally be able to kill me no matter what I do 1 room away from clan rooms. and it doesnt matter if we can get in or out of clan rooms anyways because its literally all doors and slow opening mobol doors outside.

Long story short, if anyone on any clan is dying from trollocs you should run away from your fortified base because theres not actually enough support there unless you are already winning, and your own guards will open the door for more trollocs if one gets in and ask them to, and then you are trapped inside with them.

[glynn]

The whole premise of the original post does not seem to fully appreciate that clan rooms are currently 100% safety providing two things:

1. The mobol closes the door.
2. You do not let someone in.

You're exchanging 100% safety for accomplishing two things that are entirely under your control.

I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that my post suggests clan rooms should be places you are 100% safe from attackers by virtue of being coded to never let them in.

So I think the entire premise of the original post assumes that the clan bases are actually meant to be PK zone...

Yes. My suggestion depends on the assumption that PK happens in clan rooms. If that's false, the whole thing falls apart. I think that's a fairly reasonable assumption, as demonstrated by the art of war log that inspired this thread. I believe the post is titled "Mush narrates 'go stand 3e of the exit see if roberto opens tb clan rent lolool'. So if you haven't seen it, there's a guy with a similar name to you who seems to think they should be used for pk.

If they are not supposed to be used as PK zones, then we ask Nass if he's ok with having them flagged as no pvp rooms. I don't think we're going to get a yes, but you can advocate for asking. If they ARE supposed to be PK zones, they should make sense. To me, that means they should favor defenders more than they do.

[Divina]

It's the thought that counts.

[mush]

The whole premise of the original post does not seem to fully appreciate that clan rooms are currently 100% safety providing two things:

1. The mobol closes the door.
2. You do not let someone in.

You're exchanging 100% safety for accomplishing two things that are entirely under your control.

I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that my post suggests clan rooms should be places you are 100% safe from attackers by virtue of being coded to never let them in.

You're misreading what I wrote. I wrote your post does not appreciate that clan rooms are 100% safe under most circumstances. As in, it's not mentioned and not even really considered as a clear perk of having clan rooms to begin with. I'm not saying you're suggesting it *should* be the case, I'm saying you're not considering that *is* the case.

So I think the entire premise of the original post assumes that the clan bases are actually meant to be PK zone...

Yes. My suggestion depends on the assumption that PK happens in clan rooms. If that's false, the whole thing falls apart. I think that's a fairly reasonable assumption, as demonstrated by the art of war log that inspired this thread. I believe the post is titled "Mush narrates 'go stand 3e of the exit see if roberto opens tb clan rent lolool'. So if you haven't seen it, there's a guy with a similar name to you who seems to think they should be used for pk.

If they are not supposed to be used as PK zones, then we ask Nass if he's ok with having them flagged as no pvp rooms. I don't think we're going to get a yes, but you can advocate for asking. If they ARE supposed to be PK zones, they should make sense. To me, that means they should favor defenders more than they do.

You can PK anywhere on this game. If someone opts to open the door to their clan room, I'm going to PK there. But I also don't think you can reasonably describe something as a PK zone when 99.9% of the time, they're used expressly for avoiding PK, afking, etc. We may not want completely safe rooms on this game, but that doesn't mean we don't have concessions for avoiding it in the form of clan rooms because, hey, it's a game. The price of admission for those concessions is, apparently, discouraging their active use around and as a part of PK. Either by not being allowed in with NO QUIT or having the potential to get wrecked.

If you're proposing that every clan base should be like KK or Akkad (not located inside of a city, anyone can do the needful and walk in if they want to PK there, and then walk out as well), well, that's great and I support that. I have a sneaking suspicion though that you want it both ways -- only accessible by clan from the outside, 100% safe when you want it to be, *and* super powerful when you want to opt to use it like a city inside a city.

I get that it would have netted Roberto some kills if the base was stronger and a death trap, so I just wish game balance discussions and what is or isn't good in the game was a little less certain players knee jerk reactions to someone getting away who he thought shouldn't have. As if the Imms are supposed to change something once a day because an escape or a death didn't follow one guys personal take on what should be preordained. It's exhausting to have to make the game balance fight after every in game actual fight. How about we work on balancing the balance discussions.

[azareth]

Buff the puppy. Problem solved. Emote bite damage! Rabies!

[Feneon]

One thing I'd note about the log is that it's 3 with a trolloc mob versus 1 and a human mob (that isn't always in the room because Roberto is fleeing).

You've got Lamans. K-sword. And a heron. Against a dodger.

K-sword user ends wounded/batt

I dislike the log because of how predictable it is, the narrate that starts the log and is the title of the post, and the fact that it is a scenario Roberto mentions frequently. He's in a town that he rarely controls. But, I think the log shows the potential of the Thiefbane base for PK.

If two trolls are in that and Roberto flees more, I think both die. I don't see a world where Roberto lives in this log. Three and a mob is a lot for any clan areas. Clan areas are not cityheads and are rarely close. They're only harder and less predictable to get into.

We aim for consistency. We have increased the strength of clan areas in various locations in response to things. I don't feel that the Thiefbane rooms underperformed here.

I'm sorry that I'm just giving my thoughts and not responding directly to many of the posts and discussion that came earlier.

[arston]

I have a sneaking suspicion though that you want it both ways -- only accessible by clan from the outside, 100% safe when you want it to be, *and* super powerful when you want to opt to use it like a city inside a city.

How can he possibly want it both ways, if its only accessible to the clan then it wouldn't help at all for it to be super powerful because nobody else can get into it.

Personally i think that a literal base of operations SHOULD be very close to a get out of jail-free card. Its your literal base, are all of your soldiers going to stand there and open the door for trollocs? or are they going to protect you when you come bleeding and chased. There are no instances in the books where a trolloc comes charging into a fortified military base and all the soldiers just let it kill people and then open the door for it on the way out.

If it was me i'd say you should be able to group with the the patty in your clan base which would keep the balance benefiting the defender rather than just being a door to die in, and make it feel more like you are actually assaulting a base if you are chasing someone in, if that weren't possible id make it so they cant just say exit and get out, but have to kill the patty and get the key, and fight your way out.