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Re: Projectiles
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2024 9:57 pm
by Kryyg
langois wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 5:37 pm
arjuna wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 4:24 pm
Feneon wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 3:30 pm
We've removed the unlimited throwing knife loads from Ruined Keep and Fal Dara.
Thank you for such a prompt response to this thread.
It's all well and good for endless smobbers, but once Langois does it we have an issue that needs addressing.
I truly am Ta'veren
It’s not that you did it my friend. It’s who you did it to. I am the Reaver.
Re: Projectiles
Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2024 11:04 pm
by langois
Kryyg wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 9:57 pm
langois wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 5:37 pm
arjuna wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 4:24 pm
Thank you for such a prompt response to this thread.
It's all well and good for endless smobbers, but once Langois does it we have an issue that needs addressing.
I truly am Ta'veren
It’s not that you did it my friend. It’s who you did it to. I am the Reaver.
Reminds me of doorbush getting removed
Re: Projectiles
Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 9:56 am
by Roberto
I do enjoy the irony of someone complaining about rogues due to a fight between a fade and a highly bonused hunter, and the complaint leading to immediate change.
Re: Projectiles
Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 10:12 am
by Ibaka
Melee is the strongest option for rogues. The instant fleeing/stabbing rogues are boring. I may run one stab at the beginning of pk. After that, the surprise is gone. Melee!
Sad the knife loads are gone from FD as that was convenient. However, I get why the change happened.
Re: Projectiles
Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 12:11 pm
by erulak
To be fair to Kryyg, he's absolutely right about projectile availability. Wrong about everything else, but right about that.
Roberto wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 9:56 am
I do enjoy the irony of someone complaining about rogues due to a fight between a fade and a highly bonused hunter, and the complaint leading to immediate change.
The real bonus for LS rogues at the moment is they are pretty much the only class (yes, including "highly bonused hunters") that can afford viable dodge/stab/projectiles/sblades melee set ups. That's generally fine, in my opinion, but I don't think projectiles are currently designed with haphazard resource management in mind. Between the option of altering projectiles too much (one thing that is very much needed imo is making bash interrupt only on critical hits) and making acquiring them less completely braindead, the latter is still by far better for rogues.
Re: Projectiles
Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 12:27 pm
by glynn
From my perspective, rogues have to be flee monkeys in order to have survivability because
1. high damage
2. bash is op
Bash is the only skill that doesn't produce massive amounts of whining when it is successful. Since balance is defined by the amount of whining by a subset of characters, bash success is good and bash counters are unbalanced.
Rogues are annoying to fight because they are usually flee monkeys. They are flee monkeys because they have to be. Downing non stab related rogue skills like projectiles doesn't seem to be a good balance solution to me.
Re: Projectiles
Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 12:56 pm
by Feneon
While not touching on balance or intentions, two changes really enabled projectiles to function above average.
1. Accessibility
We added a limitless supply based on gold in RK and Fal Dara that were both refundable.
2. Reduction of player error
We removed the ability to throw 1h sblades above blackened steel kris to reduce player error.
Overtime these led to an influx of thieves using projectiles which, hopefully, has led thieves to recognize this is a great asset to their tool kit. Projectiles, however, are an available resource that can be farmed and, while we may adjust ways to find them in shops, in the interim, the access to projectiles will simply require more play-time before each use.
We've had projectiles on our radar in more than one way, while the post may have been a catalyst to the removal of the load, it's not the end of the line. Remember, we removed the projectile sheath from jcuffs and number two above. This was simply to say: this has been done and the conversation can move past it.
The specific intent is of these forums is not to get hung up on balance because everyone has a differing opinion and communication is hard. It is much easier, though, to impact things like mobol or accessibility, when suggestions or solutions come relative to that it is easier to take action.
If you are interested in being a part of long-term discussions then it may be worth your time to invest in the process to become an immortal and to get involved through volunteer work:
https://forums.wotmud.info/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5109. None of us really know what the future holds, but you're here now! Maybe it's worth getting involved?
Re: Projectiles
Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 1:03 pm
by Rig
glynn wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 12:27 pm
From my perspective,
bad rogues have to be flee monkeys in order to have survivability because
1. high damage
2. bash is op
Bash is the only skill that doesn't produce massive amounts of whining when it is successful. Since balance is defined by the amount of whining by a subset of characters, bash success is good and bash counters are unbalanced.
Bad Rogues are annoying to fight because they are usually flee monkeys. They are flee monkeys because they
feel like they have to be. Downing non stab related rogue skills like projectiles doesn't seem to be a good balance solution to me.
FTFY
Rogues have access the to strongest melee potential, with or without infinite projectiles, in the game, and I think that's a good thing with how stab is currently. 280-320 (depends on dagger) average means that you're not going to be blicking people from full health
as consistently as old master stab. Old master stab needed to be downed, because we all agree that wizkilling someone from 400+ hp was absolutely terrible. We're now at a spot where we have a very high melee potential and much lower survivability. You're getting anywhere between 155-165 parry with a full kit and rares in a short blades stab set up. Which is not great at all, considering that we took OB and weapon weight and skyrocketed it to the moon. Then we removed 2h short blades, which made it possible to do funky things that probably shouldn't have been possible due to the fact that a lot of players have high statsums that allow you to practice very well through residuals. We also changed postures, which has effected rogues more than most.
It used to be that a rogue in a regular heavy combo kit without rares was pulling like 170+ parry and doing even more damage than they do now. Rogues in a in dodge were getting like 147 db and 185-190 parry at least, which is a whole lot different than the 300 defense that they're currently maxing out around at now.
Re: Projectiles
Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 6:29 pm
by Roberto
Feneon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 12:56 pm
While not touching on balance or intentions, two changes really enabled projectiles to function above average.
1. Accessibility
We added a limitless supply based on gold in RK and Fal Dara that were both refundable.
2. Reduction of player error
We removed the ability to throw 1h sblades above blackened steel kris to reduce player error.
Overtime these led to an influx of thieves using projectiles which, hopefully, has led thieves to recognize this is a great asset to their tool kit. Projectiles, however, are an available resource that can be farmed and, while we may adjust ways to find them in shops, in the interim, the access to projectiles will simply require more play-time before each use.
We've had projectiles on our radar in more than one way, while the post may have been a catalyst to the removal of the load, it's not the end of the line. Remember, we removed the projectile sheath from jcuffs and number two above. This was simply to say: this has been done and the conversation can move past it.
The specific intent is of these forums is not to get hung up on balance because everyone has a differing opinion and communication is hard. It is much easier, though, to impact things like mobol or accessibility, when suggestions or solutions come relative to that it is easier to take action.
If you are interested in being a part of long-term discussions then it may be worth your time to invest in the process to become an immortal and to get involved through volunteer work:
https://forums.wotmud.info/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5109. None of us really know what the future holds, but you're here now! Maybe it's worth getting involved?
Do we really want Roberto being an immortal? Because I will. Oh I will.
Re: Projectiles
Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 6:49 pm
by byrg
Roberto wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 6:29 pm
Do we really want Roberto being an immortal? Because I will. Oh I will.
If you become an Imm I will forever call you bob the builder.