Projectiles
Re: Projectiles
Oh and if we did all of the above I would be fine with removing lag after a successful stab.
Re: Projectiles
Btw:
Rogues with a full kit and max pracs can get 152/165 max defense (vs some other high will/high damage characters who can get 160/200+
)Stab also has an average on most sblades of like 280 hp stab damage (good firetruck channelers!!!)
Anyway, stabbers who play conservatively will always be boring and annoying, same as any other class. But they’re also easier to kill with things like slow and contagion! You and Kryyg are just whiners are stabbers already got downed so that they’re manageable characters to fight against now!
At the end of the day, players who are boring as firetruck to fight on their rogues are boring as firetruck to fight on any other character type.
(P.S. I actually think rogues need more parry, unless I’m using katars and have a full kit with a lace shirt I’m getting like 155 parry with 19 strength and it chortlesnorfling blows against the 200+ ob meta we have right now.)
Re: Projectiles
I thought the notice change for DS was a huge bonus for LS stabbers. Like that can't be underestimated. Yes regen was upped but just sitting all day long not having to worry about notice being on seems like stab overall is still powerful. I don't generally believe your 280 average stab claim! But blicks should not happen unless the player is already under a certain critical threshold, lets say 140 for the sake of 50% of FC hp. It is a wizkill and it is literally a no-skill wiz-kill. I.e. you run a timer and players disappear. On top of it, you have 400+ hps, 300+ defense, high damage melee weapons and projectiles.
Increase stab landing % significantly. Make it a % of hps. Make blicks possible at a certain critical threshold. 100 seems fine. Cap HPs at 350. I will start playing a rogue with all you bads and all you goods who log on your rogues to farm EQ for your main alts.
And to Rigs point- I agree, boring players will always be boring, but we don't need to arm them with certain skills/class bonuses that reward that type of behavior.
Increase stab landing % significantly. Make it a % of hps. Make blicks possible at a certain critical threshold. 100 seems fine. Cap HPs at 350. I will start playing a rogue with all you bads and all you goods who log on your rogues to farm EQ for your main alts.
And to Rigs point- I agree, boring players will always be boring, but we don't need to arm them with certain skills/class bonuses that reward that type of behavior.
Re: Projectiles
LS rogues have seen a pretty massive upping relative to trolloc rogues and other types of stabbers in the last few years -- can definitely agree to that. I think the bewildered reactions to the "LS Rogues" thread awhile back sort of speak to that as much as necessary. Still think it's pretty idiotic to sit on your fade that probably absolutely hit 150/160 defense type characters unbashed pretty frequently (assuming you're leading even one more person) and act like 300 defense is unbeatable. It's beatable and it should be.
The trolloc notice adjustment had to happen because of the asymmetry and brain-dead, set it and forget it nature of using notice on a trolloc. That being said, there were two options on how to handle that and we chose arguably the worse of two options, possibly because it pre-dated the adjustments to the backstab command :
(A) Make trollocs pay a cost for moving around with notice, like every other character in the game and keep notice's innate protection against stabs landing. This evens the playing field while still favoring stabbers and depressing mobility for everyone.
(B) Make notice movement free for everyone, but adjust toggle auto-off length and remove the innate protection offered by notice while keeping h.target mechanics as they are. This arguably makes fighting stabbers less painful mobility-wise (which has a widespread impact on the pace of PK in general) while still providing a pretty large boon to stabbers (you'll land more stabs you complete). The concern was probably time-stabbing, but I feel like that could handled in some other way.
I also still do not understand why stab was adjusted to remove master stab damage and then re-adjusted to give 50% of old master damage for *everyone*, not just masters. There was a short period where it seemed like stab was doing roughly 150-200 damage on average and that felt fine to me. The 280ish average damage tracks from my experience -- definitely will blick channelers fairly often but rarely anything else unless berserk.
Do think Kryyg and Jestin have short-sighted recommendations though. Stabbers generally have the most to be cautious around when they're playing against other stabbers. You largely take that away (the risk of death while rolling a timer) and I think stab played a certain way actually just gets more annoying in PK. Similarly, channelers who do not practice good engagement discipline or move in and out of the same rooms over and over again with complete reckless abandon/zoomies also deserve whatever happens. But in a world where we listen to Zarth and make weaves only land on targets that you're engaged on, it'd be different!
The trolloc notice adjustment had to happen because of the asymmetry and brain-dead, set it and forget it nature of using notice on a trolloc. That being said, there were two options on how to handle that and we chose arguably the worse of two options, possibly because it pre-dated the adjustments to the backstab command :
(A) Make trollocs pay a cost for moving around with notice, like every other character in the game and keep notice's innate protection against stabs landing. This evens the playing field while still favoring stabbers and depressing mobility for everyone.
(B) Make notice movement free for everyone, but adjust toggle auto-off length and remove the innate protection offered by notice while keeping h.target mechanics as they are. This arguably makes fighting stabbers less painful mobility-wise (which has a widespread impact on the pace of PK in general) while still providing a pretty large boon to stabbers (you'll land more stabs you complete). The concern was probably time-stabbing, but I feel like that could handled in some other way.
I also still do not understand why stab was adjusted to remove master stab damage and then re-adjusted to give 50% of old master damage for *everyone*, not just masters. There was a short period where it seemed like stab was doing roughly 150-200 damage on average and that felt fine to me. The 280ish average damage tracks from my experience -- definitely will blick channelers fairly often but rarely anything else unless berserk.
Do think Kryyg and Jestin have short-sighted recommendations though. Stabbers generally have the most to be cautious around when they're playing against other stabbers. You largely take that away (the risk of death while rolling a timer) and I think stab played a certain way actually just gets more annoying in PK. Similarly, channelers who do not practice good engagement discipline or move in and out of the same rooms over and over again with complete reckless abandon/zoomies also deserve whatever happens. But in a world where we listen to Zarth and make weaves only land on targets that you're engaged on, it'd be different!
Re: Projectiles
Interrupting bash is much worse than anything else because if it's just unlimited throws and damage you can calculate for it same as a weave or some other higher damage thing and play accordingly.
But the bash interruption would just mean you should play it like being kicked and melee, except from what I understand the proj out damages.b
Making it hard to get enough proj easily - I feel that's a blah solution because it means people will g to grind and farm will stil get it and that just benefits a certain type of player.
..
I think issue wit stabber for jestin is a very specific one of - you simply cannot offensively fight other channelers with a stabber around without risking instant sudden death. Maybe that alls applies to bashers with the rule change on weave pulse or whatever but because of how important timing is.
It doesn't affect defensive playstyles in the same way where I think it's actually great for a stabber to blick a channeler..why not. There should be a "super" counter to the highly bonused class..it's just very annoying when that is not really blockable in offensive vs many play.
Like ideally someone like jestin should have earned some kind of anti stab bonus because his playstyle is already very risky ..he goes into cities, fights several etc etc. But the game doesn't reward for skil in the way it rewards for grind and time.. what some call patience and what I would call "willingness to get bored for long periods of time"
But the bash interruption would just mean you should play it like being kicked and melee, except from what I understand the proj out damages.b
Making it hard to get enough proj easily - I feel that's a blah solution because it means people will g to grind and farm will stil get it and that just benefits a certain type of player.
..
I think issue wit stabber for jestin is a very specific one of - you simply cannot offensively fight other channelers with a stabber around without risking instant sudden death. Maybe that alls applies to bashers with the rule change on weave pulse or whatever but because of how important timing is.
It doesn't affect defensive playstyles in the same way where I think it's actually great for a stabber to blick a channeler..why not. There should be a "super" counter to the highly bonused class..it's just very annoying when that is not really blockable in offensive vs many play.
Like ideally someone like jestin should have earned some kind of anti stab bonus because his playstyle is already very risky ..he goes into cities, fights several etc etc. But the game doesn't reward for skil in the way it rewards for grind and time.. what some call patience and what I would call "willingness to get bored for long periods of time"
Re: Projectiles
Yea, rogues are definitely the lowest skill floor - ceiling ratio character type out there. I do think projectiles interrupting bash on regular throws is not great and unbalanced, and that it should only apply to critical rolls on the throw.
However, as much as I usually agree, removing the infinite loads doesn't really change the fact that they're easy to get. It just changes their availability in the middle of pk. You can get a rent worth within 10 minutes of logging into the game if you really want without the infinite loads. The problem with the infinite load is that it means that you don't have to choose between potentially wasting projectiles or not. You can just waltz back into Keep or FD and re-up and have an extra 10 on you without anything other than gold cost. Gold is not hard to get on this game. Removing the infinite buying option will end up being a good way to make sure that players who use projectiles actually have to think about how many they're just throwing around in the middle of pk before running out, since they won't be able to just go buy a pack and hide it with 30 projectiles, or walk in and grab another 10+.
However, as much as I usually agree, removing the infinite loads doesn't really change the fact that they're easy to get. It just changes their availability in the middle of pk. You can get a rent worth within 10 minutes of logging into the game if you really want without the infinite loads. The problem with the infinite load is that it means that you don't have to choose between potentially wasting projectiles or not. You can just waltz back into Keep or FD and re-up and have an extra 10 on you without anything other than gold cost. Gold is not hard to get on this game. Removing the infinite buying option will end up being a good way to make sure that players who use projectiles actually have to think about how many they're just throwing around in the middle of pk before running out, since they won't be able to just go buy a pack and hide it with 30 projectiles, or walk in and grab another 10+.
Re: Projectiles
I think you're missing the point and just cherry picking my argument. I'm not against rogues having 300+ defense, obviously that is never going to change because then equipment would need to change or other major mechanics would need to change. It is an additional bonus on top of huge damage output. I sit on my fade but I don't kill anyone instantly by just running a timer. And all your qualifications of hitting high defense people unbashed is just really anecdotal and you yourself assume I need someone with me, everyone does that and warders have more OB. Also, the insinuation that I play bonused characters and am complaining about stab because thats how I die is kind of silly since well..I die every day almost never to stab. But I do believe stab is overall detrimental to PK in its current form, projectiles added to an already easy class seems silly. The primary issue is rogues have too many things in their favor. I'm also not even arguing for a complete downing or only nerfing them, I thought a significant increase in land % and maybe removal of stab landing lag would be something people would want - to make the characters more fun. But it seems like we just want free wizkills.erulak wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 12:38 pmLS rogues have seen a pretty massive upping relative to trolloc rogues and other types of stabbers in the last few years -- can definitely agree to that. I think the bewildered reactions to the "LS Rogues" thread awhile back sort of speak to that as much as necessary. Still think it's pretty idiotic to sit on your fade that probably absolutely hit 150/160 defense type characters unbashed pretty frequently (assuming you're leading even one more person) and act like 300 defense is unbeatable. It's beatable and it should be.
The trolloc notice adjustment had to happen because of the asymmetry and brain-dead, set it and forget it nature of using notice on a trolloc. That being said, there were two options on how to handle that and we chose arguably the worse of two options, possibly because it pre-dated the adjustments to the backstab command :
(A) Make trollocs pay a cost for moving around with notice, like every other character in the game and keep notice's innate protection against stabs landing. This evens the playing field while still favoring stabbers and depressing mobility for everyone.
(B) Make notice movement free for everyone, but adjust toggle auto-off length and remove the innate protection offered by notice while keeping h.target mechanics as they are. This arguably makes fighting stabbers less painful mobility-wise (which has a widespread impact on the pace of PK in general) while still providing a pretty large boon to stabbers (you'll land more stabs you complete). The concern was probably time-stabbing, but I feel like that could handled in some other way.
I also still do not understand why stab was adjusted to remove master stab damage and then re-adjusted to give 50% of old master damage for *everyone*, not just masters. There was a short period where it seemed like stab was doing roughly 150-200 damage on average and that felt fine to me. The 280ish average damage tracks from my experience -- definitely will blick channelers fairly often but rarely anything else unless berserk.
Do think Kryyg and Jestin have short-sighted recommendations though. Stabbers generally have the most to be cautious around when they're playing against other stabbers. You largely take that away (the risk of death while rolling a timer) and I think stab played a certain way actually just gets more annoying in PK. Similarly, channelers who do not practice good engagement discipline or move in and out of the same rooms over and over again with complete reckless abandon/zoomies also deserve whatever happens. But in a world where we listen to Zarth and make weaves only land on targets that you're engaged on, it'd be different!
Re: Projectiles
We've removed the unlimited throwing knife loads from Ruined Keep and Fal Dara.
Re: Projectiles
It's all well and good for endless smobbers, but once Langois does it we have an issue that needs addressing.
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