Rank 8 Zone Sense

[Artorias]

You don't have a grasp for how ganking works. Situationally stronger =/= stronger. That's why it's situationally. Seeing something zone =/= getting ganked. However, that is exactly what you're saying. Awesome!

I haven't read everything yet, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that LS senses shadowspawn in a random smob zone like say Aylia, is it really only 1 ds looking to try and get a lucky stab off on a whole smob group? Or is it a DS group who is actively looking for the people smobbing because no one is pking them atm?

[isabel]

There is not one single instance of an Aes Sedai in the books who consistently refused to fight the shadow when faced with them (unless she was black).

This is where zone sense for Sedai creates a huge conflict of RP and shows how we cherry pick roleplay driven decisions.

Unless your primary RP is "though I am sworn to fight the shadow, for whatever reason, I never choose to do that" (which is Not viable RP for a clanned character) having zone sense constantly presents you with a choice that would be unviable in the books for an rper who refuses to pk.

It's extra galling because I care about RP very much and my character used zone sense to -find- pk. I fully respect someone like Arston having zone sense because he has developed his character on a certain path and he's not obligated to fight the Shadow in the way that an Aes Sedai is - and rank 8 is a long, long grind.

That's really the crux of the zone sense RP argument problem - an Aes Sedai sensing the shadow but not choosing to fight, sounds like feeble excuses.

Compare this with - your character unexpectedly encounters the shadow and either wins or loses based on the situation and their skill. That is RP that is consistent with your character growth.

[isabel]

And from what I recall of ancient times, it was certain dreadlords-to-be in the tower who pushed roleplay to such a passive place where it became a thing that greens and reds are the pk ajahs.

In the books, first Sedai is moiraine who defends an entire village.

[Fyra]

There is not one single instance of an Aes Sedai in the books who consistently refused to fight the shadow when faced with them (unless she was black).

This is where zone sense for Sedai creates a huge conflict of RP and shows how we cherry pick roleplay driven decisions.

Unless your primary RP is "though I am sworn to fight the shadow, for whatever reason, I never choose to do that" (which is Not viable RP for a clanned character) having zone sense constantly presents you with a choice that would be unviable in the books for an rper who refuses to pk.

It's extra galling because I care about RP very much and my character used zone sense to -find- pk. I fully respect someone like Arston having zone sense because he has developed his character on a certain path and he's not obligated to fight the Shadow in the way that an Aes Sedai is - and rank 8 is a long, long grind.

That's really the crux of the zone sense RP argument problem - an Aes Sedai sensing the shadow but not choosing to fight, sounds like feeble excuses.

Compare this with - your character unexpectedly encounters the shadow and either wins or loses based on the situation and their skill. That is RP that is consistent with your character growth.

If an Aes Sedai felt her life was in danger, due to overwhelming odds, she would certainly flee. In the books, one Aes Sedai could easily dispatch 8 trollocs. However, if facing an entire hoard driven by a fade, they would not fare as well alone. I think you'll agree, that game mechanics don't allow an in-game Aes Sedai to win more times than not 1-8. I'd say it is not bad RP in this game for an Aes Sedai to make a tactical retreat when sensing she is facing overwhelming odds. In fact, remember this series of events regarding Moraine in the books:

Her party travels to Baerlon. Once they arrive in Baerlon, they stop at the Stag and Lion Inn for some rest. The 2nd day they are in Baerlon, Nynaeve al'Meara, the Wisdom from Emond's Field arrives and finds them in the Stag and Lion. After an argument, Nynaeve agrees to accompany the party on their way to Tar Valon. That evening, Rand is confronted by a Fade in the Inn and the party is forced to flee in the night.

On the way out of Baerlon, they have an encounter with the Children of the Light and Moiraine is forced to use the One Power to frighten the Children. They travel east for 3 days until they are again attacked by Trollocs. Moiraine uses fire and earth to block the Trollocs from getting to them, but the party is forced to take refuge in the abandoned city of Shadar Logoth. The Trollocs enter Shadar Logoth and the party is again forced to flee. This time, on their way out of the ruined city, the party is separated by Mashadar, the evil that devoured the city. Moiraine, Lan, and Nynaeve are separated from the boys and Egwene."

A lot of fleeing danger occurred here. Moraine knew better than to put herself and her group in a situation that was not in their favor. Aes Sedai in this game will fight when the odds are right, and will flee when they are not. I don't know any Aes Sedai in this game that will not fight the shadow when the moment dictates they do. I don't believe it is bad RP to make that decision based on your feelings about an individual situation. If one is alone, senses spawn in the zone, and feels she is not equipped to handle the situation, it is appropriate RP for them to flee. One cannot serve the light while dead.

[byrg]

Due to rank 8 zone sense being overly generous and being a way too easy way to scout for crossrace opponents, it is in the process of being removed.

Really enough said. How anyone can look at that decision, then look at the decision to give it to *all* sedai, and not see a conflict there... is just chortlesnorfling laughable. Feels like some extreme bias by whoever's making decisions up in imm-land on this one, and I highly doubt that's something we'll fix.

Either remove it across the board, or give it back to rank 8s as well (I think it's stupid and should just be gone... but its complete and utter bullshit to tell rank 8s they cant have it while giving it to every sedai). Current situation is stupid.

[Zarth]

IDK what books people been reading. In the very first book we see Moraine and Lan get surprised by a horde. They didn't sense them until the trollocs were basically in Emonds Field. They spent the rest of the book trying to avoid pk smh.

[isabel]

Haha, well don't want to get into an argument but my logic was purely statistical.

If you don't have zone sense, you are typically -thrown- into a situation. You may have a heads up from a narrate, you may have backup or a large enough group, you may be out matched with no escape.

If you do have zone sense and are a compulsive where spammer like me, you have a choice.

So i can tell you what my RP as a borderguard would be - the shadow is here, either i fight them or I figure out how to get the backup numbers or mobs to fight them.

Essentially, my next steps in the game are determined by the fact that the shadow is present and this needs to be addressed.

It is Not superseded by - but I'm teaching a class on the slice weave which wil at some point be effective in battle, because the battle has presented itself as Now

It is Not superseded by - but I'm trying to get Armor to defend my homeland, because the threat to my homeland has presented itself as Now

Where we make gameplay exceptions are - when we basically don't want to pk because we don't enjoy it (it is a game).

The difference with having zone sense is that you Always know when the pk is around you. You are Always choosing.

And so if you are smobbing and it's zone ..RP Sedai or smob Sedai wil not get into pk because they are there to smob. I imagine that happens a lot.

That's what I mean by RP breach because that's not a risk assessment. It's literally an "there is shadow, and I don't want to deal with this right now, it's not fun for me"

Which is fair. It's just that zone sense as an ability enables this stepping away which is fundamentally a disenchantment with both an aspect of the game, and a core RP of Aes Sedai.

[Artorias]

In case you can't tell, this game has essentially devolved into the teeth-pulling process of getting people to actually even pk

Stealing quote from the Smobbing with Teeth post. TL/DR we aren't a pk mud anymore, there have been too many changes making pk the worse choice for qps/gear and losing 80% of the playerbase.

There are many different takes on how PK SHOULD be and how people WANT PK to be. When they took away zerk attack pk started to stumble, when they started changing pk zones for no reason- pk went from stumbling to falling and getting up, when they started adding more ways to get QP's without having to actually fight for them - pk started to crawl, when they made it harder and harder to remort for those of us without one while the player base was already in a nose dive- pk gave out and fell flat with only the occasional spike of adrenaline to pick back up for a short time. Now look at where we are today. I log on at times and say hi, ask if anything going on, got hit a scout and wait a couple tics, and I get absolutely nothing in response from the 15-20 people on my side or hitting scout.

I agree with a lot that's been said in the different Player Lounge topics about changes. I quit for a while with the zerk attack removal, and again when they started changing zones that I had memorized and fought in for over a decade. Come back and more changes are made "because of the dwindling population," but in reality the changes started THEN the player base started to shrink. There have been some absolutely amazing changes, and some absolutely ridiculous ones that make zero sense except to the small minority that cried and cried for the change IMO. We went from a pk based/focused mud, to a PVE smob mud with the occasional pk thrown in. And everytime we start to get numbers back because of a holiday or event people cry for more changes to things that have been that way for years and are only now more predominantly seen because instead of 100 people playing we have 20-30 on a good day.

I have been a pker only person for nearly 2 decades, when I was finally given a chance to do one of the only 3 things I've wanted since I started playing this game, becoming a Gaidin, I stepped back from pk only and started spending more time with the PVE side of the game. The only smobs I know how to get to are the Northern PK zone smobs and Roland cause he's right next to caemlyn. I have always had the mentality that smobbing only is too boring and i'll just get from pk, because that is where I have the most fun. The last 2 month's I have smobbed more then I have pk'd and I've come to enjoy, not the smobbing itself (I don't think I can ever truly enjoy fighting stationary mobs that we can just dogpile), but the people i've been doing it with and seeing a different side of the game then what i'm used to.

Gating around is absolutely safer then just running around the mud. It is also 100x faster and with less downtime, which causes people to lose interest or run out of time faster. As someone else pointed out, the smobbing is so high right now because of the christmas even loaders. Once the event is over the smobbing will die down again, as will the numbers i'm sure. Now zone sense itself I find hard to argue for or against because I've never had it. I do agree that if you took it away from rank 8's only to give to all AS then that falls into the "absolutely ridiculous" category of changes. I also know that AS are not the only LS to have zone sense but no one seems to be pointing that out. Make the no locate skulls and medallions make you no sense as well if it's really that big of a pain for those of you who only want pk and not to let others play the game how they want to play. DS has channelers that can Gate around and find the smob group. Idk how Gate works but doesn't it not work or fail more with no quit? Zone sense does nothing if they aren't able to use gate to get away.

I don't know i'm rambling at this point because I have no real argument for or against gate or sense. This not a PK mud anymore. We just have to accept that. Yes there is always a chance to be killed, but it's no where near as high as it was with 100+ people on the game. If you get a group of people on and want pk but there is no one answering the scouts, then go raiding and kill a cityhead or camp a smob for a the smobbers. You can't force everyone to play the way you want to. I had to learn that the hard way constantly being ganked and expecting others to pk the way I do and them doing the complete opposite. We always have the same arguments just worded in different ways it seems.

[arston]

Due to rank 8 zone sense being overly generous and being a way too easy way to scout for crossrace opponents, it is in the process of being removed.

Really enough said. How anyone can look at that decision, then look at the decision to give it to *all* sedai, and not see a conflict there... is just chortlesnorfling laughable. Feels like some extreme bias by whoever's making decisions up in imm-land on this one, and I highly doubt that's something we'll fix.

Either remove it across the board, or give it back to rank 8s as well (I think it's stupid and should just be gone... but its complete and utter bullshit to tell rank 8s they cant have it while giving it to every sedai). Current situation is stupid.

This is the absolute main issue.

That's what I mean by RP breach because that's not a risk assessment. It's literally an "there is shadow, and I don't want to deal with this right now, it's not fun for me"

Which is fair. It's just that zone sense as an ability enables this stepping away which is fundamentally a disenchantment with both an aspect of the game, and a core RP of Aes Sedai.

Core RP shouldnt be violated of course, but remember theres core RP from the mud, core RP from your character what they would do, and core RP from the books. The books never had Aes Sedai as trolloc killing machines. I can remember ONE from Fal Dara who was related to the leadership there, the rest of the Aes Sedai were all down south mostly staying in Tar Valon itself, or out traveling and promoting the Tower's interests. Telling Aes Sedai they HAVE to deal with every threat they see is 100% culture from wotmud stemming from people telling each other how they should play.

[erulak]

I'm just assuming the last couple of posts agree that nobody's rediscovered Traveling where WoTMUD's timeline currently is at, since we're delving into the idiocy that is a rank 8 KMG feeling bad that WoTMUD only supports pk.