Rank 8 Zone Sense

[Rig]

I don't know what game you guys are playing, but smob loads getting changed months ago do not = 10 smobs for 1 side. Try more like 1 sid every 2 smobs. lol. Especially for KMG and with the plethora of basics loads being upped + gold combo basics being upped. Trinks galore.

again off topic, you could have a whole thread on how many things are wrong in that statement

I just did this last week. But go off.

[Fyra]

Saying big smob groups using gate and zone sense =/= everyone on LS or everyone on DS. There aren’t any over generalized parts of this at all. Except for the part where you are getting pressed because I keep saying you want high reward low risk gameplay.

If you don't think this is an overgeneralization,

The only people arguing against this are people that want to get the best gear in the game with very minimal effort and risk.

then you don't know what the word means. There are many arguing here, myself included, that don't give a rat's ass about the best equipment in the game. I usually trade it for stuff I can re-eq easier with when I inevitably die. There are many reasons for smobbing and/or not wanting to get ganked that have absolutely nothing to do with getting the best gear in the game. Heralds give QPs. Smobs give basic gear to stock up and regear with. It's fun to have a smob trip with clan mantes. It's preferable to have a fun fight vs 1 or 2 rather than die in two rounds to 5. There are reasons that some may want to keep zone sense that has nothing to do with having zero risk. For example, zone sense makes it easier to continue PK up north when the fight moves to another zone.

Don't try to act like overgeneralizations have not been made.

[Rig]

[quote=Rig post_id=153165 time=<a href="tel:1703199848">1703199848</a> user_id=1072]
Saying big smob groups using gate and zone sense =/= everyone on LS or everyone on DS. There aren’t any over generalized parts of this at all. Except for the part where you are getting pressed because I keep saying you want high reward low risk gameplay.

If you don't think this is an overgeneralization,
The only people arguing against this are people that want to get the best gear in the game with very minimal effort and risk.
then you don't know what the word means. There are many arguing here, myself included, that don't give a rat's ass about the best equipment in the game. I usually trade it for stuff I can re-eq easier with when I inevitably die. There are many reasons for smobbing and/or not wanting to get ganked that have absolutely nothing to do with getting the best gear in the game. Heralds give QPs. Smobs give basic gear to stock up and regear with. It's fun to have a smob trip with clan mantes. It's preferable to have a fun fight vs 1 or 2 rather than die in two rounds to 5. There are reasons that some may want to keep zone sense that has nothing to do with having zero risk. For example, zone sense makes it easier to continue PK up north when the fight moves to another zone.

Don't try to act like overgeneralizations have not been made.

I’m aware of what it means. I don’t care about what gear you get from smobbing. I care that zone sense and gate are used in ways to minimize risk to the absolute lowest it can be. You are too stuck on the “pk gawds just want to kill us non-pkers having a good time!!!11!1!1” and not reading anything that’s said. (By the way, that last sentence, that’s an over generalization)

The more I keep repeating myself about how the combination of these things are so strong that the product is a HIGH REWARD LOW RISK environment, and the more you argue that these are not used in this way while also bringing up examples of running as soon as you see someone zone, the more you’re proving my point after every post.

[Fyra]

Because, and listen to this carefully, just because I fled the zone to avoid the chance of being ganked while alone, doesn't mean I was in the zone for a high reward reason. Your overgeneralization assumes a level of greed that does not exist. It is accusatory.

Is the Aes Sedai getting a few XP scalps to get a level back from dying in northern pk, there for high reward reasons? If they run off without the XP scalps because they sensed spawn in their zone, were alone, and didn't want to risk a gank, does that mean they want ZERO risk? Does that somehow prove your point that all LS just want a high reward/low risk environment?

You are using the game conditions of the last month, created due to loaders and such, paint a scene that doesn't even exist the rest of the year. This "rares are falling from the sky with no risk" picture you paint only represents about a month of the total year. Maybe, some of us are thinking of the game as a whole, long term, when we make our arguments, and won't let you paint us as "they all just want high rewards and low risk" players. You take something we say, like 'fleeing when alone and spawn is in the zone" and try to apply it to your false narrative that the reason for it is we want to collect all the rares falling from the sky with zero risk. It's simply not true, and an OVERGENERALIZATION.

[Rig]

Or, listen to this very carefully, you citing examples of zone sense being used to run doesn’t mean that only you do it. It’s not accusatory, and there aren’t any accusations. I don’t care if you’re getting rares, which I also said multiple times.

If you were thinking of the game as a whole, long term, then you’d understand that the community is supported of multiple platforms between rp/pvp/PvE and that what affects one very often affects the other. If you want to sit here and try to lawyer me over false narratives and claim I’m taking an accusatory stance, then please provide something other than “I want to do this and use these bonuses without risk of death!” instead of continuously getting more and more belligerent because of the simple fact that you’re wrong and can’t understand the argument being made.

[Fyra]

I understand your argument, I just don't agree with it. I also feel it cherry picks one thing: Aes Sedai zone sense. As I've stated, track can be used to create a low risk environment. So can smells, locate object, locate life, fade, port.... It also cherry picks one class. Do you have a problem with "another group" having zone sense, along with other impressive perks that could be used to both prevent pk or to create it?

I understand your argument. I don't agree with it. It's not a matter of who is right and who is wrong, because it is not an argument based on facts. It's an argument based on opinion.

[Sarinda]

I’m still waiting to hear responses to my post with ideas on simpler, more efficient and elegant solutions to increase risk without removing or further nerfing Gate (e.g., more smobs narrating or yelling, more rats, more no-Gate rooms around smob areas, make no-Loc items also block zone sense).

Even if we all suddenly agreed on the proposed problem, I think the proposed solution (removing zone sense, removing Gate) is overkill and narrow-minded.

EDIT: I want to make it really clear that I’m not saying that my suggestions are perfect or even great. I just think that there are alternative solutions to the problem Rig posed that haven’t been discussed and would require less drastic changes, most of which can be implemented via mobol rather than coding.

[erulak]

I’m still waiting to hear responses to my post with ideas on simpler, more efficient and elegant solutions to increase risk without removing or further nerfing Gate (e.g., more smobs narrating or yelling, more rats, more no-Gate rooms around smob areas, make no-Loc items also block zone sense).

Even if we all suddenly agreed on the proposed problem, I think the proposed solution (removing zone sense, removing Gate) is overkill and narrow-minded.

Sure. Think all of your ideas miss the general point and makes some of the same incorrect assumptions sprinkled throughout this thread. The idea is not to feed information to one side any time someone decides to do anything on the other side. It's to make information available to the other side if they get off their ass, leave the Well/City Square, and go hunting for tracks or signs of life around the world.

If you're looking for pk, bop a scout. When you're smobbing, you're not looking for pk, so there should be some effort made by the other side to traverse the world and look for signs of movement and activity. This is why some of us did not like pukeblood loads in DS shops (made it way to easy to sit up north and find randoms) and think the current state of the basin is almost a silly joke that also misses the point.

So to reiterate, the super efficient 6 or 7 ideas you're throwing out in response to 1 or 2 ideas seem to miss the mark on the actual ask.

[Sarinda]

Those are fair points and I appreciate you articulating them that way.

So if I’m understanding it correctly, what you are saying is that it’s not about the presence or absence of information about the movement of smob groups. It’s that you think that there should be mechanisms in place to reward people who are more actively seeking out enemy groups, rather than just making that information passively available? And that Gate and zone sense help people counter or work around such efforts too easily?

If that’s the primary concern, my main issue with the proposed suggestion to remove Gate in particular is that Gate is useful for so many other quality of life functions, and often facilitates the actual formation of smob groups in the first place when people might otherwise not want to join because they don’t have the time to ride all around the world. I’m worried it’s throwing the baby out with the bath water and that there are simpler alternative solutions that haven’t been tried yet.

[Leis]

I’m still waiting to hear responses to my post with ideas on simpler, more efficient and elegant solutions to increase risk without removing or further nerfing Gate (e.g., more smobs narrating or yelling, more rats, more no-Gate rooms around smob areas, make no-Loc items also block zone sense).

Even if we all suddenly agreed on the proposed problem, I think the proposed solution (removing zone sense, removing Gate) is overkill and narrow-minded.

Most of what I'm going to say isn't in response to you Sarinda but I am going to address this so I figured I'd reply.

The reality of the zone sense situation is, in my experience, that DS will follow tracks and then eventually find that someone is in zone but ... they were going to find you anyway. If they are raiding (i.e. in a place where you can get what anyone could consider 'ganked') then they don't get numbers on zone sense and it's objectively worse considering it has a condition in which it can stop working (dism). Raiding groups are also typically smaller but that's on a case by case basis. Doesn't change anything they will still find you because of tracks. I think zone sense in northern PK is a whole other animal and not relevant to this conversation as anyone who goes there should be expecting PK. I also think comparing the two is probably a little silly as it's clear which is worse (DS - it can stop working if you dismount) but DS has more and having it on a char that can auto track is what I would consider the busted part.

I don't use gate and my brain turns off when I hit a smob so I honestly don't care if it gets deleted but I do know that the combination of gate + zone sense and the way it is often used is not fun to me personally. Even when I'm in the smob group gating around I often times would just rather fight and die than gate out and log off or go farm a different smob somewhere else or whatever. I guess I just don't get the point of safely farming gear to safely farm more gear ad infinitum. I'm aware that the mindest of 'feels good 2 earn thing in video game' is not shared by everyone and that's not a dig it's just how it is but it makes it very hard to see the other side.

Edit: I had a part here addressing Sarinda but I think it was already summed up before I posted. A system to find people but not easily accessible. Oh also last years holiday smob was fun so I think instead of world wide smob rewards on holidays, a zone where the smob is known by both sides.