Rank 8 Zone Sense

[Fyra]

Yea, it's balanced because there are limitations and a malus associated with a *situationally* stronger version. I know that we have a hard time understanding that around here. You're just proving my point time and time again by admitting multiple times that zone sense is used, regardless of form, to avoid player interaction.

So you're saying that the malus makes a situationally stronger smells equal to zone sense, that soen't have the malus, but is situationally weaker. Awesome! They're equal. Get rid of smells, tracking, detect life, detect object, and any others things I'm missing that can be used to avoid "player interaction" (since that what seem to be calling ganking now), and I'll agree that zone sense should go as well.

[Rig]

You don't have a grasp for how ganking works. Situationally stronger =/= stronger. That's why it's situationally. Seeing something zone =/= getting ganked. However, that is exactly what you're saying. Awesome!

[Fyra]

You don't have a grasp for how ganking works. Situationally stronger =/= stronger. That's why it's situationally. Seeing something zone =/= getting ganked. However, that is exactly what you're saying. Awesome!

Seeing something zone = a better than 50% chance of getting ganked.
Situationally stronger= stronger in certain situations.
Zone sense with without malus (other than it only applying to one class, and not giving numbers) = smells because smells is stronger (available to higher percentage of DS and gives number) but has malus of others needing to be mounted.
Math is fun.

[Rig]

You don't have a grasp for how ganking works. Situationally stronger =/= stronger. That's why it's situationally. Seeing something zone =/= getting ganked. However, that is exactly what you're saying. Awesome!

Seeing something zone = a better than 50% chance of getting ganked. Have any data to back this? How do you know it's a 50% chance? Math is fun.
Situationally stronger= stronger in certain situations. Yea, it also means weaker in certain situations. Math is fun.
Zone sense with without malus (other than it only applying to one class, and not giving numbers) = smells because smells is stronger (available to higher percentage of DS and gives number) but has malus of others needing to be mounted. See above. Situationally = stronger or weaker depending on the situation. Math is fun.
Math is fun.

[Fyra]

You don't have a grasp for how ganking works. Situationally stronger =/= stronger. That's why it's situationally. Seeing something zone =/= getting ganked. However, that is exactly what you're saying. Awesome!

Seeing something zone = a better than 50% chance of getting ganked. Have any data to back this? How do you know it's a 50% chance? Math is fun.
Situationally stronger= stronger in certain situations. Yea, it also means weaker in certain situations. Math is fun.
Zone sense with without malus (other than it only applying to one class, and not giving numbers) = smells because smells is stronger (available to higher percentage of DS and gives number) but has malus of others needing to be mounted. See above. Situationally = stronger or weaker depending on the situation. Math is fun.
Math is fun.

Rig, I think you're just failing to make the right point here. Here's the thing. You don't have a problem with smells being a thing. You claim it's because smells is weaker than zone sense. Even you know that is a ridiculous claim. The real problem you have with it is this (and honestly, it would be a fair argument if you made it):

LS often times use zone sense to avoid pk.
DS most of the time use smells to FIND pk, not avoid it.

You don't really think zone sense is stronger. You just know (as we all do), that players use smells and zone sense differently. People playing DS generally WANT pk, and many on LS just don't (no, i don't have exact statistics to back that up).

[Rig]

I have a problem the amount of zone sense, because increasing the amount of zone sense creates a safety net in a game where it simply isn't meant to exist.

I have no problem with smells as they are. There is not an issue with smells. I have an issue when DS abuses smells and Gate to farm cityheads for 2 months and purposely avoid players. Funny thing though, the dismounted malus associated with it meant that DS couldn't always tell when they were about to be hit. LS zone sense can.

I don't care how people play the game. However, purposely using these things to create a bubble of safety creates a dead game. If you have no intention of risking anything when you log on and walk out of your clan rent or city, then my point still stands that you'd rather have these items to avoid player interaction in every sense except for those who are helping you.

[Fyra]

To just outline my opinion here, this is what I think:

Aes Sedai have zone sense, however, they have a malus that others do not. They have a 280 max HP. I think that's a good thing, because they do a lot of damage. However, when against large numbers and alone, that low HP pool is a much bigger malus than the larger damage output is a boon. Therefore, I think it is fair balance to allow the lowest HP class in the game to have a mechanic that protects them from POSSIBLE ganking. Other classes have 400ish HPs, and could survive that hit easier.

I don't want a safety net that avoids all player interaction. I want the mud to choose and encourage player interaction that is fair, and fun for both sides. Zone sense could be used to seek out a DS smob group more efficiently, and create the very player interaction you are looking for.

Like I said earlier, if you came across my path, I'd fight you 1v1. I'm not a PKer, but it would be fun to try. I'd enjoy the game. I'd die, but I don't care about that, cause I had fun doing it. However, dying in two rounds to a group is just not fun. So I'd get the death, which is no big deal if I had some fun, but don't get the fun, because I died before I even knew what was going on.

Just my two cents.

[Briannon]

LS often times use zone sense to avoid pk.
DS most of the time use smells to FIND pk, not avoid it.

You don't really think zone sense is stronger. You just know (as we all do), that players use smells and zone sense differently. People playing DS generally WANT pk, and many on LS just don't.

Except that often the people with the intent to try and chase down smobbers aren't actually looking for fun 'pk', they're looking for easy smobber kills, since most of the time smobbers (and many pure smobbing sedai) are frankly not very good at pk. Nothing wrong with the world being dangerous, let's just call it what it is.

That said, there IS too much zone sense with all sedai having it unbonded.

Also it's very easy to chase down smob groups, gating or not, if you know how to do it.

[Fyra]

Except that often the people with the intent to try and chase down smobbers aren't actually looking for fun 'pk', they're looking for easy smobber kills, since most of the time smobbers (and many pure smobbing sedai) are frankly not very good at pk. Nothing wrong with the world being dangerous, let's just call it what it is.

This is one of the things I've been trying to say, but you've said better. Removing gate/zone sense really only makes it easier to hunt down smobbers. And I disagree with the premise that crushing smobbers = fun 'pk'. They want us to be honest, but aren't really being honest themselves. Some people should just admit they want it to be easier to farm bad at PK smobbers for rares and scalps.

[Rig]

LS often times use zone sense to avoid pk.
DS most of the time use smells to FIND pk, not avoid it.

You don't really think zone sense is stronger. You just know (as we all do), that players use smells and zone sense differently. People playing DS generally WANT pk, and many on LS just don't.

Except that often the people with the intent to try and chase down smobbers aren't actually looking for fun 'pk', they're looking for easy smobber kills, since most of the time smobbers (and many pure smobbing sedai) are frankly not very good at pk. Nothing wrong with the world being dangerous, let's just call it what it is.

That said, there IS too much zone sense with all sedai having it unbonded.

Also it's very easy to chase down smob groups, gating or not, if you know how to do it.

Yea, the point of DS is kind of to kill humans. When you make the decision to smob, it comes with the notion that you're putting yourself at risk of possibly getting attacked by DS or same-side. We can argue about "easy kills" and "non-pkers" all day long, but that isn't the point. The side of the argument that wants to keep zone sense and Gate as they are is the side that wants to create an almost nonexistent chance of that happening. That's why it's better to just admit you want high reward low-risk gameplay.

It is easy finding smob groups without Gate. It is nearly impossible to catch them unless they want to be caught with Gate and zone sense combination. Otherwise you can prove me wrong because I can't wait to see you on DS leading the troops and catching Gating groups consistently