My proposal is that brave/berserk would be required to acquire the 5% bash bonus.
Zarth proposed something like this awhile back (simply giving trolls the 5% bonus). Obviously its coding and unlikely to ever, ever, ever be implemented. Obviously, the current dynamic has been this way forever. That said, people used to drink from empty skins without knowing they'd already drank the last sip. Things change.
I could sit here and try to write out all the ways the game would change (dismounted humans benefiting and what not), but the number one winner will be troll absers and bashers and mounted bashers will lose potency when not brave. Most characters that bash will experience situational benefit, but there are winners and losers. The Imms are obviously concerned about the balance of dodge. The bonus is already in the game - its just lopsided.
What's fascinating to me about this is that for all of the changes the game has made to abs, weapon damage, trinkets parry and what not this would actually change the underlying combat assumptions of the game and potentially change player behavior. You can only fiddle with the above so much before you end up with new problems (too much abs, too much weapon damage, etc). Additionally, for all of the changes to parry trinkets - the parry difference between choosing wimpy or brave exerts a difference in parry greater than anyone would ever consider implementing to trinkets.
20/21 STR options would probably require modification.
Mounted bash bonus should be mood based.
Re: Mounted bash bonus should be mood based.
I'll preface this by saying I agree in principle with the change for the same reason I always hated postures giving rank damage whether you're wimpy or brave. But I think this would have been an important (and better) fix in past (and potentially future) metas that dodge-bash and combo-bash are too strong, and I'm struggling to figure out what this really changes meaningfully at this point. I also generally agree that parry is a very bad mechanism for balancing bash around, but that seems to be a separate issue.
Will also co-sign the 20/21 str issue on DS -- we've seen some changes already rationalized and conclusions backed into in some ways that either intentionally or ignorantly overlooked the off-setting nature of 20/21 OB vs. the innate mounted bash bonus. If you touched "this" without addressing "that", that'd probably make 21 str trolloc bashes pretty over the top relative to humans.
Will also co-sign the 20/21 str issue on DS -- we've seen some changes already rationalized and conclusions backed into in some ways that either intentionally or ignorantly overlooked the off-setting nature of 20/21 OB vs. the innate mounted bash bonus. If you touched "this" without addressing "that", that'd probably make 21 str trolloc bashes pretty over the top relative to humans.
Re: Mounted bash bonus should be mood based.
I would say the larger issue is how poorly the bash/dodge formula goes, and how that balance poorly accounts for the plethora of rare weapons that the top pkers seem to have unending supplies of.
The balance works fairly well with regular combo and regular abs...and then quickly falls apart when rare weapons get thrown in, and rare gear (except for abs -- murgoz does not improve things to the same level as an ornate shirt or jcuffs/lace shirt does for combo/dodge).
Humans mounting having a different set of bonuses than trollocs (21 str) is not a bad thing. The asymmetric thing is pretty good in concept.
The bash% compared to extra damage.... should favor the trolloc being more powerful -- after all, the str is temporary (requires a DL or a consumable) OR a significant stat penalty (21 9 9 14 17 is max possible stats for bearish) to keep full time. Compounding this onto the general poor mentals of trolls and significantly reduced pracs, DS chars should have something going for them besides a "I killed you with a gimp char" superiority complex thing.
This balance only really falls apart when LS absers (also fades/greymen) are forced to play dismounted ( e.g. running around inner FD keep) vs dodge/combo sets, but for better or for worse (imho worse) 95% of the MUD is outdoor areas so that situation really doesn't happen outside of very situational smob ganks and city raid pk.
The balance works fairly well with regular combo and regular abs...and then quickly falls apart when rare weapons get thrown in, and rare gear (except for abs -- murgoz does not improve things to the same level as an ornate shirt or jcuffs/lace shirt does for combo/dodge).
Humans mounting having a different set of bonuses than trollocs (21 str) is not a bad thing. The asymmetric thing is pretty good in concept.
The bash% compared to extra damage.... should favor the trolloc being more powerful -- after all, the str is temporary (requires a DL or a consumable) OR a significant stat penalty (21 9 9 14 17 is max possible stats for bearish) to keep full time. Compounding this onto the general poor mentals of trolls and significantly reduced pracs, DS chars should have something going for them besides a "I killed you with a gimp char" superiority complex thing.
This balance only really falls apart when LS absers (also fades/greymen) are forced to play dismounted ( e.g. running around inner FD keep) vs dodge/combo sets, but for better or for worse (imho worse) 95% of the MUD is outdoor areas so that situation really doesn't happen outside of very situational smob ganks and city raid pk.
Re: Mounted bash bonus should be mood based.
I wrote a version of the original post 1.5 months ago. It was all over the place. It covered combo weapons, combo abs, troll flee lag. Everything.
That post was inspired by the unpleasant experience of a week of fighting humans that bash a troll better than the troll can bash them (65% vs 60%), that hit hard, that seem to have near "abs" level abs and can have 180 PB to parry with while bashed. But like I said in the original post - most of those things can be fiddled with. Abs can be downed. Weapons can be modified. I actually like hard hitting weapons for the sake of the game so players can actually kill each other, but damn.
The bashing disparity though is what gets to me. You are sitting there thinking - if I land these bashes, I could win this fight, but in fact you are fighting with a inferior set of dice. And you are fighting against an opponent where you have to have those bashes land to win.
I find myself looking back on memories of killing "pathetic" absers. Unless told otherwise - I always targeted absers first. They were the path to master and scalps. For all of the "Ghar basher smash" and what not - they just didn't have it. Too much "offensive uncertainty".
When I started revising this post I thought - what else could be done? Could bash be "scaled" to allow 65% against abs/combo? Could trolls just get +5% on bash? And then I wrote the above. There's something elegant to me about the misery of it and generating a difference between the two different moods. And yet everyone gets a little something.
Do I think it will be implemented? No and even if implemented in some form - not for years. But my hope is simply to influence the Imms and try to change their perspective on troll bash.
Stab landing percentage was recently changed. It was unfortunately a divisive issue because of the feeling it affected trolls negatively. Its unfortunate it came down on a "racial" line because I think upping the effectiveness of a active skill is a winner for player morale and experience. People like seeing their skills work and succeed. I think this could succed in that same way.
That post was inspired by the unpleasant experience of a week of fighting humans that bash a troll better than the troll can bash them (65% vs 60%), that hit hard, that seem to have near "abs" level abs and can have 180 PB to parry with while bashed. But like I said in the original post - most of those things can be fiddled with. Abs can be downed. Weapons can be modified. I actually like hard hitting weapons for the sake of the game so players can actually kill each other, but damn.
The bashing disparity though is what gets to me. You are sitting there thinking - if I land these bashes, I could win this fight, but in fact you are fighting with a inferior set of dice. And you are fighting against an opponent where you have to have those bashes land to win.
I find myself looking back on memories of killing "pathetic" absers. Unless told otherwise - I always targeted absers first. They were the path to master and scalps. For all of the "Ghar basher smash" and what not - they just didn't have it. Too much "offensive uncertainty".
When I started revising this post I thought - what else could be done? Could bash be "scaled" to allow 65% against abs/combo? Could trolls just get +5% on bash? And then I wrote the above. There's something elegant to me about the misery of it and generating a difference between the two different moods. And yet everyone gets a little something.
Do I think it will be implemented? No and even if implemented in some form - not for years. But my hope is simply to influence the Imms and try to change their perspective on troll bash.
Stab landing percentage was recently changed. It was unfortunately a divisive issue because of the feeling it affected trolls negatively. Its unfortunate it came down on a "racial" line because I think upping the effectiveness of a active skill is a winner for player morale and experience. People like seeing their skills work and succeed. I think this could succed in that same way.
Re: Mounted bash bonus should be mood based.
I think you could do exact examples using the bash calculator and maybe get more traction, because people will have different feelings. I have recently thought that bash seems very strong on trollocs. Just a few years ago it was an abysmal low % chance that an abser would bash full dodge unless master or berserk (or both). Now anything will bash dodge, so play style is completely different.
In the past I was told highest % bash in the game was 65% and easily reached on any fade, any riding person and any trolloc with 21 str...is this true?
Trollocs already get +5 ob to make up for riding (is this still true?).
Brave and wimpy change ob considerably so of course they effect bash considerably...
Is the mounted bash bonus anything more then the OB given for riding? Is it not offset entirely by +5 trolloc OB and ability to have 21 STR?
In the past I was told highest % bash in the game was 65% and easily reached on any fade, any riding person and any trolloc with 21 str...is this true?
Trollocs already get +5 ob to make up for riding (is this still true?).
Brave and wimpy change ob considerably so of course they effect bash considerably...
Is the mounted bash bonus anything more then the OB given for riding? Is it not offset entirely by +5 trolloc OB and ability to have 21 STR?
Re: Mounted bash bonus should be mood based.
Further, can anyone shed light on if the new clan rank damage is effected by abs? It feels like it isn't which is a big hit to absers. Similar to when master damage ignored abs and before that ward damage ignored abs. Fighting abs vs abs on an unclanned you get the feeling that there is a big damage difference, more then +3 * .85 would make me think.
Re: Mounted bash bonus should be mood based.
When I last did these calcs, trolls had worse bash until they hit 21 str, and then were comparable to a mounted human (implying that access to teas is effectively a balance lever). Happy for anyone to check my math on that though.
Re: Mounted bash bonus should be mood based.
Good questions above.
(a) Non-club trolls are capped at 60% as their maximum bash rate. They can never bash higher than this. Regardless of their strength, OB, weapon weight, etc - they always at best bash at 60%. Having 21 STR does not impact the limiting rate.
(b) Trolls do have an inherent OB bonus over humans. Its like 5+ OB. When a human mounts they receive 2 bonuses - a OB bonus (that is dependent on ride) and a 5%+ bash bonus. The human bonus is apparently 10+ OB at level 6 and 11+ at level 7. A comparable human should have 5-6 more OB than the same troll.
(c) The 5%+ mounted bonus adds directly to the likelihood of bashing but also increases the cap to 65%. More on this below, but against combo and abs a dismounted human essentially bashes like a troll. The troll will have a 5+ OB bonus and will therefore bash dodge essentially 5% better.
(d) Brave and wimpy currently affect both OB and PB and therefore they both affect bash. OB is a more potent modifier of the bash calculation than PB which is divided by 4. Interesting observation - many 1 handed weapons are highly dependent on their PB to bash. A 15 lbs weapon with 180 OB, dismounted (no bonus) bashes 130 DB 15% of the time. That would be pretty poor. Adding 150 PB increases their odds to 52%. Mounted to 57%.
(e) There are likely 2 recent game changes that affect the perception of dodgers that they are being bashed more. When warriors lost berserk attack they received an OB bonus of I believe 5+ OB. There are a lot of warriors out there. The second is that some of the OB that was lost due to postures changes was redistributed across all weapons - potentially another 5 OB. Peak OB came down a little, but average OB increased. A brave 19 STR non-master trolloc warrior, H&H claymore, full armor, full trinkets bashes 160 DB at 12%. A comparable human therefore will have 6 more OB and the 5% mounted bonus. I believe that means the human bashes essentially 10-11% better. Berserk will benefit both of the bashers above. A final possible cause for players feeling they are bashed more is the prevalence of rare combo weapons.
(f) Strength potions and trolls. STR does impact damage.
-Strength teas don't affect bashing abs because the abser has no DB so they are always bashed at 60% by a troll.
-Bashing combo is going to be situationally dependent based on your build but the troll abser I describe above (claymore, non-master, brave etc) bashes 120ish DB at 60% which is higher than most comboers will pull. The situation may vary based on the weapon of the basher, but my suspicion is that most combo users should always sacrifice DB in exchange for ABS and PB because most of the time they are going to be bashed at 60% regardless of the rarity of their trinkets. Combo DB might protect against being bashed wimpy. It might protect against lighter weapons though these will have parry to balance them out. If you are sitting there in combo wondering whether you should add obsidians or gold rings - I'd open up the calculator because you might just be making cosmetic changes.
-2+ STR appears to add 11 OB when berserk based on reviewing old logs. Someone should call me on this if I'm wrong but the 6+ OB and the 5% bash bonus would appear to balance the 11 OB from a bashing perspective.
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I've attempted to try and hit some of the high points. Things not yet said
(a) The availability of the armor spell really makes a big difference... if you are already in top dodge. I have a human rogue in fairly nice gear who is at 149. I log into him once a year - check his DB, add 10+ and then use that as my basis of what might be out there. I'm not attempting to cherrypick the 160. I assume dreadlords or something ridiculous out there might hit higher.
(b) The numbers above will all be worse for a hunter. For example, a troll hunter in the 160 DB example will bash at 7% brave. What's even more problematic is that some of the top DB opponents are going to be channelers who are landing ice spikes / fireballs at a much higher rate than 7%.
(c) If you think playing a human dodger against troll bashers is rough - consider the fate of a trolloc dodger against a human basher who has the inherent 5% mounted bonus and 6+ more OB.
(d) As noted above, the real inspiration for this thread was the dissatisfaction with how trollocs bash combo and abs ie. that they are capped at 60% but facing off against a 65% opponent. Obviously its also frustrating to not be able to bash dodge but I can at least wrap my head around that. Not bashing combo/abs creates a situation where you lose control of bash-off situations because you miss more than your opponent. It creates situations where a combo short blader can out damage a basher through fleeing and offensive uncertainty.
(e) After seeing the numbers above - if someone's take from this thread was that no one should have the 5% bonus - that wouldn't seem unreasonable to me though I prefer a game where bash lands.
(f) Lower level dodge bonus probably doesn't work anymore. Decades ago I remember playing a 130DB character and thinking "this isn't bad". That character will be bashed by combo now. They will bashed 65% by a mounted claymore ie. full rate. My above trolloc warrior should bash 130DB at his full 60%. Every DB above 130 though should begin decreasing the 60% ie. 59% at 131 etc.
(g) 1-2 years ago the Imms said a change might be coming to the armor weave. I'm curious to see if anything ever comes of that.
(a) Non-club trolls are capped at 60% as their maximum bash rate. They can never bash higher than this. Regardless of their strength, OB, weapon weight, etc - they always at best bash at 60%. Having 21 STR does not impact the limiting rate.
(b) Trolls do have an inherent OB bonus over humans. Its like 5+ OB. When a human mounts they receive 2 bonuses - a OB bonus (that is dependent on ride) and a 5%+ bash bonus. The human bonus is apparently 10+ OB at level 6 and 11+ at level 7. A comparable human should have 5-6 more OB than the same troll.
(c) The 5%+ mounted bonus adds directly to the likelihood of bashing but also increases the cap to 65%. More on this below, but against combo and abs a dismounted human essentially bashes like a troll. The troll will have a 5+ OB bonus and will therefore bash dodge essentially 5% better.
(d) Brave and wimpy currently affect both OB and PB and therefore they both affect bash. OB is a more potent modifier of the bash calculation than PB which is divided by 4. Interesting observation - many 1 handed weapons are highly dependent on their PB to bash. A 15 lbs weapon with 180 OB, dismounted (no bonus) bashes 130 DB 15% of the time. That would be pretty poor. Adding 150 PB increases their odds to 52%. Mounted to 57%.
(e) There are likely 2 recent game changes that affect the perception of dodgers that they are being bashed more. When warriors lost berserk attack they received an OB bonus of I believe 5+ OB. There are a lot of warriors out there. The second is that some of the OB that was lost due to postures changes was redistributed across all weapons - potentially another 5 OB. Peak OB came down a little, but average OB increased. A brave 19 STR non-master trolloc warrior, H&H claymore, full armor, full trinkets bashes 160 DB at 12%. A comparable human therefore will have 6 more OB and the 5% mounted bonus. I believe that means the human bashes essentially 10-11% better. Berserk will benefit both of the bashers above. A final possible cause for players feeling they are bashed more is the prevalence of rare combo weapons.
(f) Strength potions and trolls. STR does impact damage.
-Strength teas don't affect bashing abs because the abser has no DB so they are always bashed at 60% by a troll.
-Bashing combo is going to be situationally dependent based on your build but the troll abser I describe above (claymore, non-master, brave etc) bashes 120ish DB at 60% which is higher than most comboers will pull. The situation may vary based on the weapon of the basher, but my suspicion is that most combo users should always sacrifice DB in exchange for ABS and PB because most of the time they are going to be bashed at 60% regardless of the rarity of their trinkets. Combo DB might protect against being bashed wimpy. It might protect against lighter weapons though these will have parry to balance them out. If you are sitting there in combo wondering whether you should add obsidians or gold rings - I'd open up the calculator because you might just be making cosmetic changes.
-2+ STR appears to add 11 OB when berserk based on reviewing old logs. Someone should call me on this if I'm wrong but the 6+ OB and the 5% bash bonus would appear to balance the 11 OB from a bashing perspective.
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I've attempted to try and hit some of the high points. Things not yet said
(a) The availability of the armor spell really makes a big difference... if you are already in top dodge. I have a human rogue in fairly nice gear who is at 149. I log into him once a year - check his DB, add 10+ and then use that as my basis of what might be out there. I'm not attempting to cherrypick the 160. I assume dreadlords or something ridiculous out there might hit higher.
(b) The numbers above will all be worse for a hunter. For example, a troll hunter in the 160 DB example will bash at 7% brave. What's even more problematic is that some of the top DB opponents are going to be channelers who are landing ice spikes / fireballs at a much higher rate than 7%.
(c) If you think playing a human dodger against troll bashers is rough - consider the fate of a trolloc dodger against a human basher who has the inherent 5% mounted bonus and 6+ more OB.
(d) As noted above, the real inspiration for this thread was the dissatisfaction with how trollocs bash combo and abs ie. that they are capped at 60% but facing off against a 65% opponent. Obviously its also frustrating to not be able to bash dodge but I can at least wrap my head around that. Not bashing combo/abs creates a situation where you lose control of bash-off situations because you miss more than your opponent. It creates situations where a combo short blader can out damage a basher through fleeing and offensive uncertainty.
(e) After seeing the numbers above - if someone's take from this thread was that no one should have the 5% bonus - that wouldn't seem unreasonable to me though I prefer a game where bash lands.
(f) Lower level dodge bonus probably doesn't work anymore. Decades ago I remember playing a 130DB character and thinking "this isn't bad". That character will be bashed by combo now. They will bashed 65% by a mounted claymore ie. full rate. My above trolloc warrior should bash 130DB at his full 60%. Every DB above 130 though should begin decreasing the 60% ie. 59% at 131 etc.
(g) 1-2 years ago the Imms said a change might be coming to the armor weave. I'm curious to see if anything ever comes of that.
Re: Mounted bash bonus should be mood based.
great information thanks, I didn't know most of this...
As for the 5% variance seems like you could, either use clubs to make it up or manufacture a situation where the human has to dismount...or make them dismount and quaff a str tea for a possible 10% swing in bash chance?
Seems like the tunnels and caves around make a lot of sense for low trolloc absers to wait at...ie s e u of rottendoor vs w n...
It's the same with dodge, you have to be very mindful when you have to ride and % chance to be bashed has a drastic swing.
As for the 5% variance seems like you could, either use clubs to make it up or manufacture a situation where the human has to dismount...or make them dismount and quaff a str tea for a possible 10% swing in bash chance?
Seems like the tunnels and caves around make a lot of sense for low trolloc absers to wait at...ie s e u of rottendoor vs w n...
It's the same with dodge, you have to be very mindful when you have to ride and % chance to be bashed has a drastic swing.
Re: Mounted bash bonus should be mood based.
Other way around. low hp combo/dodge trolls to sit and wait vs humans, or vs abs fades.
the double whammy of -10 ob and -5% bash from the human dismounting makes a very, very notable difference on their ability to bash you, as well as breaking your defense.
it makes combo set ups near unable to bash "crappy" dodge (130 db), and abs set ups struggle a lot more.
the only bad part is that most no-ride areas are also no-track and rarely used...which means the other side has no f-ing idea where you went and you might as well have just gone inside to rest up.