One thing though..I've always thought of rogues as the natural counter to channelers. There's no other class that limits your offensive maneuvering as much I think.
In group pk with multiple classes, I think rogues play a wonderful role..can turn the tide of overwhelming numbers etc
LS Rogues
Re: LS Rogues
If the only way to kill something is with a disengaged, walkback, or flee, stab then you have a problem. Because there is really no other reason to get stabbed if you didnt typo. But luckily you can just bash or go to a no chan/sted.
Re: LS Rogues
Well, there's a lot more nochans now than there used to be, but mostly the counter to channelers is either bashing (also much easier) or going sted. If the channie is smart she's not unengaged weaving in the first place.isabel wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 10:59 amOne thing though..I've always thought of rogues as the natural counter to channelers. There's no other class that limits your offensive maneuvering as much I think.
In group pk with multiple classes, I think rogues play a wonderful role..can turn the tide of overwhelming numbers etc
And rogues can be useful...but most just hide in room and stab, and if you have 2-3 rogues in a group of 4, you're pretty limited in what you can do too. So we want hunters and warriors to outnumber them so they *can* play that role you mention.
Re: LS Rogues
Yes yes ..the scenario I'm visualising is very much a
hunters /fades / Gaidin leading and maneuvering the troops
Warriors / ghars / red shirt lancers pummeling each other
3 Aes Sedai and 1 dreadlord fleeing in and out weaving and timing things
...suddenly a stab! Like a Harry Potter seeker turn of events.. and one Aes Sedai (probably Naerin because her weak warder Ecthus is irl busy!) Perishes. Now it's 2v1 channelers..a surge of hope and glee for the trollocs..and just as they rejoice..
Fermin blicks Mikhan!
Seee how fun that is :p
hunters /fades / Gaidin leading and maneuvering the troops
Warriors / ghars / red shirt lancers pummeling each other
3 Aes Sedai and 1 dreadlord fleeing in and out weaving and timing things
...suddenly a stab! Like a Harry Potter seeker turn of events.. and one Aes Sedai (probably Naerin because her weak warder Ecthus is irl busy!) Perishes. Now it's 2v1 channelers..a surge of hope and glee for the trollocs..and just as they rejoice..
Fermin blicks Mikhan!
Seee how fun that is :p
Re: LS Rogues
To be honest, upping LS rogues in any capacity is a terrible idea.
They have practices/flees/horse hop ability over DS rogues. There’s a reason that a lot of players run rogues/stab. It’s easy. There is nothing easier than sitting around rolling stabs. There’s nothing easier sitting around rolling stabs on characters that aren’t practice starved. Short blade melee is still the best damage in the game.
LS also has a whole clan dedicated to #elite rogues. A clan with all bonuses and 0 drawbacks to them. Move bonus indoors/road rooms/city rooms+ the ability to horse hop with 0 penalty? Already better than any other stabber. Night vision? Already strong.
Seanchan sucks. Nobody likes them. That’s because it attracts bad players. Sorry not sorry.
DS thieves are good insofar as having zone sense/decent mobility. They absolutely blow when it comes to the mobility of a LS rogue that isn’t clanned Black Talon. Especially after vial changes. Their practices are definitely bad compared to LS rogues. They’re still inherently strong because of smells/ease of play up north, but that’s it.
If anything it’d be more useful/helpful/healthy to focus on the only class that has been affected negatively by all of the changes to classes, except statting. I’m talking about hunters. Snow? Makes auto-track dogshit. Pretty sure we fucked with the bonus to flora/fauna or whatever it is.
What this game needs is more leaders, and more players who want to get things going. It needs less people sitting in one room hiding and rolling stabs to get lucky and go from zero to hero.
They have practices/flees/horse hop ability over DS rogues. There’s a reason that a lot of players run rogues/stab. It’s easy. There is nothing easier than sitting around rolling stabs. There’s nothing easier sitting around rolling stabs on characters that aren’t practice starved. Short blade melee is still the best damage in the game.
LS also has a whole clan dedicated to #elite rogues. A clan with all bonuses and 0 drawbacks to them. Move bonus indoors/road rooms/city rooms+ the ability to horse hop with 0 penalty? Already better than any other stabber. Night vision? Already strong.
Seanchan sucks. Nobody likes them. That’s because it attracts bad players. Sorry not sorry.
DS thieves are good insofar as having zone sense/decent mobility. They absolutely blow when it comes to the mobility of a LS rogue that isn’t clanned Black Talon. Especially after vial changes. Their practices are definitely bad compared to LS rogues. They’re still inherently strong because of smells/ease of play up north, but that’s it.
If anything it’d be more useful/helpful/healthy to focus on the only class that has been affected negatively by all of the changes to classes, except statting. I’m talking about hunters. Snow? Makes auto-track dogshit. Pretty sure we fucked with the bonus to flora/fauna or whatever it is.
What this game needs is more leaders, and more players who want to get things going. It needs less people sitting in one room hiding and rolling stabs to get lucky and go from zero to hero.
Re: LS Rogues
Balance means some areas are weaker and some are stronger, but overall neither outshines the other.
Sure DS rogues have more moves to run around stabbing things with, but they dont have instant access to infinite projectiles, so they cant always base their strategies around it. The problem is that its not inherently unbalanced, its that not very many LS players know how to use projectiles efficiently (If you are taking objection to this statement you are not one of the people i am referring to, because there are a few players who use them very well, but overall its not as big a thing).
As far as rogues being balanced with other classes... projectiles allow you to hit with the OB and the damage of a heron greatsword, and to do it in full dodge. They let you hit any target thats bashed in a group fight, or that you are buffing, sometimes interrupting bashes, and when not throwing, a dagger can shred an abser with attack rounds. That's already extremely powerful in a group fight, especially if your group coordinates your channelers (which LS has lots more of) and rogues to throw at whoever gets bashed. I've seen equal sized groups kill a dreadlord at full health at their own patty in one bash that way.
I realize many do not share the opinion with me that a rogue is more powerful in most melee situations than a warrior or a hunter in most solo and group fights, assuming that they have both daggers and projectiles and choose which to fight with based on the situation, but to properly balanced they SHOULD be a bit weaker. If they were every bit as strong without stab, then it wouldn't be fair to ALSO have the ability to insta-kill with stab.
And anyone who thinks its too annoying to learn how to use projectiles right..... well that just balanced with how annoying it is to fight you as a rogue
Honestly I feel that if every player got something similar to smells that told if someone was hiding in your zone it might make rogues more fun and balanced to play against, and then they might see more pk. Some emote like "You feel an itch in your spine like you are being watched" when you hit where and someone is hiding in the zone. Players would still have to be vigilant to avoid stabs, but wouldnt waste moves unnecessarily and still be able to talk/play, and rogues wouldnt be able to rush out of pk and hide quite as easily when they get low which would lead more people to try pking them.
Sure DS rogues have more moves to run around stabbing things with, but they dont have instant access to infinite projectiles, so they cant always base their strategies around it. The problem is that its not inherently unbalanced, its that not very many LS players know how to use projectiles efficiently (If you are taking objection to this statement you are not one of the people i am referring to, because there are a few players who use them very well, but overall its not as big a thing).
As far as rogues being balanced with other classes... projectiles allow you to hit with the OB and the damage of a heron greatsword, and to do it in full dodge. They let you hit any target thats bashed in a group fight, or that you are buffing, sometimes interrupting bashes, and when not throwing, a dagger can shred an abser with attack rounds. That's already extremely powerful in a group fight, especially if your group coordinates your channelers (which LS has lots more of) and rogues to throw at whoever gets bashed. I've seen equal sized groups kill a dreadlord at full health at their own patty in one bash that way.
I realize many do not share the opinion with me that a rogue is more powerful in most melee situations than a warrior or a hunter in most solo and group fights, assuming that they have both daggers and projectiles and choose which to fight with based on the situation, but to properly balanced they SHOULD be a bit weaker. If they were every bit as strong without stab, then it wouldn't be fair to ALSO have the ability to insta-kill with stab.
And anyone who thinks its too annoying to learn how to use projectiles right..... well that just balanced with how annoying it is to fight you as a rogue
Honestly I feel that if every player got something similar to smells that told if someone was hiding in your zone it might make rogues more fun and balanced to play against, and then they might see more pk. Some emote like "You feel an itch in your spine like you are being watched" when you hit where and someone is hiding in the zone. Players would still have to be vigilant to avoid stabs, but wouldnt waste moves unnecessarily and still be able to talk/play, and rogues wouldnt be able to rush out of pk and hide quite as easily when they get low which would lead more people to try pking them.Re: LS Rogues
Omgg love that idea..also it would be lovely if it was tied to RP ranks 
just saying.. people who RP ANd PK getting a bonus like that would be v cool.
Rig - how many actual really fun to play with/against leaders have there been in a decade? I mean since 2012 for instance.. Rig (????I guess??), Ragyn, Rhys, Rfermin (?) Idkk it's not many. I mean people who will take risks and make things happen intelligently in a way that keeps both sides entertained.
I think we need an analysis of why that is the case. Probably on a different thread.
But possibly because the pre-2012 leaders like Rtekela and Rkryyg overshadow their growth?!
just saying.. people who RP ANd PK getting a bonus like that would be v cool. Rig - how many actual really fun to play with/against leaders have there been in a decade? I mean since 2012 for instance.. Rig (????I guess??), Ragyn, Rhys, Rfermin (?) Idkk it's not many. I mean people who will take risks and make things happen intelligently in a way that keeps both sides entertained.
I think we need an analysis of why that is the case. Probably on a different thread.
But possibly because the pre-2012 leaders like Rtekela and Rkryyg overshadow their growth?!
Re: LS Rogues
This is sort of a mysterious one for me. I can't think of where move management is difficult for human rogues, outside of blighted zones, and I'm fine with blight being tough on human moves. But that kind of management is still something that can, well, be managed with planning and preparation. (And as others have said, managing resources against stabbers is more annoying than as a stabber.) I'm not sure what else to respond to without someone coming along and actually making a case that LS rogues are weak.
Re: LS Rogues
How am I supposed to use my stab trigger in pk without blowing through vials?!
Re: LS Rogues
I think backstab damage could be halved. The no risk versus high reward play style is ridiculous but it always has been.