What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?

... sit down, kick back and relax, and talk about anything that doesn't belong on one of the other forums.
Tusty
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue May 05, 2020 3:42 pm

Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?

Post by Tusty » Fri Dec 30, 2022 8:06 pm

Sarryn, I've always known that our great minds think alike! *Bro-Highfive*

Foil
Posts: 81
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:10 pm

Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?

Post by Foil » Fri Dec 30, 2022 8:45 pm

I should have put this in a previous post but I forgot it so I apologize.

One of my major gripes with most of these clanning procedures is they hinge on the same gameplay loop as you actual clan advancement and it makes little logical sense.

Since gaidin has been talked about recently we will go with that. The system requires you to get 10 master troll/remor heads. Why? You can't bond at rank 1 so why would the slaying of masters and remorts be required for admittance? It makes more sense that those requirements should be fulfilled as ranking requirements not entrance requirements.

I personally feel like admittance should hinge on desire to protect aes sedai, willingness to learn how you can protect aes sedai, and showing you have the rp ability to be in the midst of the aes sedai in their day to day duties outside of pk. Would also be a nice boom if you had endorsement from an aes sedai in rp form. Outside of that, learning the actual ability to protect the aes sedai should be more tied to your journey through the ranks. That seems more like advancement to me.

I'll reiterate my previous standpoint. Joining a clan should be easy, earning the ranks should be the time investment/challenge. Silly clanning requirements that are basically time gates or subjective opinions really just don't have a place.

That's honestly the biggest difference between the two sides.

I started a warrior, stayed completely unknown, got abs/axe/binnol. Leveled to 51 during a weekend of 5x. Pkd for a day, smobbed with some trolls, got clanned. Never once was there a road block. If I was a new player I was on the path to remort all within 4-5 days of character creation. Granted, I am not a new player so results will very, however I was completely unknown on that alt.

Ominas
Posts: 459
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:07 am

Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?

Post by Ominas » Sat Dec 31, 2022 4:12 am

I don’t really play any more. I pop on forums to check in (I have an apprentice still and want to make sure they are getting what they need, or can, when they are ready to continue. I can assure you, cross my heart, that this is not at all me making a long intro to grab their attention and prompt them to FUC*ING finish it already!) from time to time, so take this with a grain of salt because I’m not up to date and have no idea what’s happening anymore.

I can’t really add anything for the above reasons. But as far as Gaidin, it’s a character type that is on par with fades. I believe the original intent was to be the ls version of the ds remorts. It has to be strenuous. But honestly? It’s fairly easy and straightforward. (Do you hear that? It’s not that FUC*ING hard! You’re almost done! What’s your problem? Are you trying to torture me?) Especially considering the hoops you have to jump through to remort. It’s not easy for some players (Apparently you!), but there have been tons of straight up role players who have gotten through it. It just takes effort and time which I think is fair. There was a shift a while back where Gaidin were accepting legit newbies seemingly every other apprenticeship. I myself did it several times. (And I hate myself for it every day! Do you have any idea how much paperwork I’ve had to do because of you and your unfinished tasks! At least a foot worth of parchment! I have better things to do, you troglodyte! My fingers hurt, they are bruised and almost as black as your heart!)

That being said, I do agree with those who have said that clanning processes should evolve and change. How should they change? I don’t really know. I don’t believe Imms should involve themselves in things like that, but they could make suggestions with clans that have done the same things for the last two decades. Maybe give certain time frames and say goals should be attainable within xyz time frame or remind clans of their basic function and give reminders that tasks (or whatever) need to fit current game and clan activity.

Clanning used to mean something on ls. It was an event. Everyone made a point to log on and be around for it. There were a lot more players and a lot more rp. Times have changed. Which is ok. That should be embraced. We have traditionally been a community that’s pretty resistant to changes. But it’s probably time.

As I said I can’t really add anything because I don’t really know, but I saw that brought up and thought it was a fair point.

Rig is right about the secret clans. Anyone really can do it. I’ll give you an example actually. When Rig was younger he annoyed the piss out of me (wasn’t his fault, I was notoriously short tempered and fairly immature, and he was literally just a kid) but he got brought up in a secret clan I was part of. He had a few black marks to his name, I don’t recall what, which means it probably wasn’t even really real, you know what I mean? He wasn’t as good as he is now. Didn’t really understand roleplay. Overall he was learning to navigate stuff and working to be better. When it was brought to my attention I was genuinely indifferent towards him and his goals. As were several other members. He wasn’t blocked. I personally razzed him a bit, but I did what I was supposed to do and tasked him, told him my expectations, and he performed. Above and beyond expectations.

You can basically pick a name and tell that same story with most players. I’ve always disliked that argument about those types of clans. The whole know someone thing. Or claims of special treatment. Does it happen? Sure. It absolutely kind of was that way at different times. But things change, right?

Same thing with a lot of the issues we face to this day. A lot of us (I know I did for a long time due to immaturity and a lack of self awareness) hold onto stuff that was, while ignoring what has changed. More importantly we don’t think about what could be.

We should start looking at the game with a more modern approach and let go of what we knew. As far as how to move forward and operate anyway.

Thanks for the interesting discussion. I hope it continues.

Kordin
Posts: 712
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:17 pm

Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?

Post by Kordin » Sat Dec 31, 2022 5:21 am

Ominas wrote:
Sat Dec 31, 2022 4:12 am

Rig is right about the secret clans. Anyone really can do it.

The whole know someone thing.

Or claims of special treatment. Does it happen? Sure.

It absolutely kind of was that way at different times.
Going to paraphrase something you told me after days, weeks, of preparing an approach and RP for a certain "secret" clan and discussing with you who would vouch/be a mentor/sponsor to be even considered as a candidate. It wasn't that long ago - "It probably won't happen, because there are people who no-vote just because they can and because they're that type of people."

Apologies for further derailing the topic. I don't really have much to add that hasn't already been mentioned at least once. People make playing any side great or the complete opposite. When it comes to players, that is mostly seen in a positive way on DS, often SS (or used to be), and less often on LS due to the nature of each side. It's not really a "thing" or something that can be "fixed"/"changed". It's a 30 year old game, with a lot of drama and bad blood and other "high-school-like" BS that doesn't go away. Good luck fighting that....

iria
Posts: 504
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:35 pm

Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?

Post by iria » Sat Dec 31, 2022 11:40 am

Regarding some of Foil's points with regards to ranking quests. I think the mud as a whole has tried to move away from having certain ranking quests, that could bottleneck the players. Most clans it is basically get the QPs get the rank until rank 7. So I can see the point that it could perhaps be preferred to have an easier clanning process and then have tougher ranking quests, but I think this creates more needless administrative work for either Council or immortals, and ultimately ends up taking more time.

I know I was personally a little discouraged by the clans I joined that had random ranking quests, like show a Council member around certain zones, get x-type of PK scalp and wahtnot. Because the tough part generally was finding another high enough ranking member of the clan available to run through the tasks and it tended to just bottleneck the process. The only ranking quests I thoroughly enjoyed was the morat'rakens rank5 quest, it actually felt special upon completing it.

But I agree with some of the points made. Wolfbrother, Warders and Asha'man/Kin/Aes Sedai/Raken are likely the big draws for new players who have joined in and I imagine it can be discouraging hearing that the secret clans are very tough to join and likely not happen, despite however much time you put into it. Having these as the Lightside remort option open to anyone who have put in the time, similar to remorting on DS, would likely be a good idea. To have a streamlined process people can be presented with. If you do x then you become y. Instead of, "yes we do have wolfbrothers, but you're not highly likely to be clanned there".
Although to be honest Warders and Aes Sedai already have fairly clearcut clanning processes so it isn't as much an issue in my eyes. But I do believe changing some of the popular "cool" clans into classes that all can attain, similar to Dreadlords/Myrddraal, would likely make it an easier sell. Moving the popular factions from a player controlled clan into a more "decentralized" class, might work to ease up on some of the grievances some folks have. Granted this is likely not going to happen or it would need a significant amount of work from the people upstairs to restructure the workings of current clans.

Could be that train has already run its course, but perhaps open up another option for remortdom, ideally Blademaster or Aiel. You stay in your clan but you become an Illian Companion Blademaster or become an Aiel with whatever kind of restrictions and bonuses we put on those.

I really enjoyed Razhak's post regarding remorts that Atienne posted. And I remember there was that Ogier remort thing in the works for some seanchan at the very least, so I'm hopeful that will happen at some point and maybe inspire a Lightside remort as well.

jafra
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:25 pm

Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?

Post by jafra » Sat Dec 31, 2022 12:10 pm

I would suggest just deleting secret clans. They don't really need to exist, and cause all sorts of issues. Let the players RP that if they really want to, but without the bonuses, cliques, etc.

Foil
Posts: 81
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:10 pm

Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?

Post by Foil » Sat Dec 31, 2022 12:33 pm

I don't think I'd advocate specifically for those gaidin clanning requirements to become ranking quests, however I do feel they are better suited as ranking tasks than clanning tasks. If I was forced to choose which on was the better alternative I would say 10 remort/master heads would be something to be completed before you were able to bond rather than before you were able to clan. It just seems to make more sense that way to me.

That being said my particular gripe isn't with gaidin it was just a clan discussed in the thread so I made some points using them as the example.

I think some questions regarding clanning would be;

How many people have clanned gaidin since the change to the clanning process? How many have undertaken the quest and not completed it? How long has it been since the changes to the clanning process?

My question regarding wolf brother clanning;

Are there people in this community who aren't a WB or directly good friends with a WB that actually understand how you become one? If the average player doesn't actually understand how you go about completing a goal they have, that's an issue to me. Same could be said for BT and Kin.

When it comes to clanning I think player agency is important, it shouldn't be auto clan and it also shouldn't require immortal intervention. However when setting forth guidelines for who we admit into clans I think as a community the quests should be clear, understandable, without subjective votes, and relatively quick. It isn't our job to manage how many of a particular bonus is in the game and I don't believe we should concern ourselves with gating the avenues to such bonuses.

arston
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:05 pm

Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?

Post by arston » Sat Dec 31, 2022 1:44 pm

I 100% agree with Foil, a remort option doesnt have to be easy in order to be (at least semi-automated), just like the fade option has a set list of goals that you do and get the points to do it, rather than get bottlenecked with votes and other players opinions.

One thing I have also noticed, is that the people who are up north in pk all the time, get more exposure to the "right" people to join the secret clans (whichever ones they may be, most people that are in any seem to be in all of them and also play on DS so they get exposed to a majority of who they need to vote on them all the time), and so someone who enjoys pking and puts the time in, is going to have everyone they need "see" that they are working on it and streamline it in. Compare that to someone like me as an example, who has mastered a different, but equivalent playstyle. I can regularly play 300 hours over a month without dying, keep a group safe, or solo any smob in the game depending on which class/stats/setup im using. Yet many of the bonused clans threw a big fit when I reached r8 thinking I hadnt deserved it (because they never saw me pk). And of COURSE they havent seen me pk, it literally bores me so much I have fallen asleep in the middle of it on multiple occasions, and half of my pk rips are because i can't excuse myself out of the pk any other way (to my partners, not that i cant get away). Only recently have I been able to pk at all without being completely bored out of my mind and feeling like im doing homework instead of playing a game, and im not sure that I have killed 10 masters/remort across all of my characters, but if I want to become a gaidin, thats exactly what I have to do like some borderlander general instead of helping and protecting aes sedai and new players which I have been doing since day 1. Not saying its a bad requirement, just odd that a game that claims to have things for a bunch of different playstyles locks all the best bonuses behind pk requirements, despite how far off from book rp it is.

Rig
Posts: 2226
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:00 pm
Location: JESUS

Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?

Post by Rig » Sat Dec 31, 2022 2:26 pm

This is my last post, because it is hard to make people see the other side of the coin.

All of these big LS bonuses that we’re talking about being locked behind the “PK pay wall” literally only falls to Gaidin. And even then, it’s not something that’s HARD, it’s not something that will take someone a long time even with limited playtime. It’s difficult. It’s not always the easiest thing. However, you can’t have “build camaraderie” and “clan me easily” at the same time that anyone here is describing.

0 pk needed for Kin
0 pk needed for Iron Fist (some members prefer more pk, some prefer good zone knowledge, some prefer players having good mechanical knowledge, that’s fine)
Less pk than Gaidin required for wolfbrother (same as above)

It’s fine if pk is boring or not up your alley. I can count on two fingers the amount of times someone has actually tried to rp with my Kin/IF/WB to show in some roundabout way show they’re interested. They also got clanned. Not ever have I been a fan of gatekeeping or blocking people from clanning. You see that more often in unbonused clans or little clans that hardly exist (sorry Raken/Sword and Hand/Ko’bal) and it’s extremely annoying.

If Arston wants a Gaidin, he’ll put in effort for it. If it’s too boring for him, he won’t put in effort for it. That’s entirely his choice and his problem. If Foil wants a Gaidin but hears the reqs and decides he’s too lazy, that’s his problem. It’s not on anyone but the player who deems it worth his time or not.

To be honest about it, if you decided you didn’t want to spend any time building any sort of relationship with anyone, and came up to me and said you’d like to clan easier, I’d vote and say no. If you came up to me and said, “hey, I’m having trouble doing these tasks, is there any way I can do it better or is there something else that’s more stimulating for me?” I would bring it to everyone’s attention in that specific clan and I can guarantee that they’d have support with that.

Harun
Posts: 168
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:45 pm

Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?

Post by Harun » Sat Dec 31, 2022 3:26 pm

Rig wrote:
Sat Dec 31, 2022 2:26 pm
However, you can’t have “build camaraderie” and “clan me easily” at the same time that anyone here is describing.
Could not agree with this more. Likewise, it's incoherent to say, "it would mean a lot for me to be in this clan, and you should let me in because the game is meaningless." I understand some of the frustrations with other players being bottlenecks to advancement, but we need more reasons for players to interact, rather than fewer. If I know my clan needs me to be around on my council member, then I'm going to make more of an effort to be around. This is also why I'd like to see clans be able to have ranking quests again - they help keep members invested in the clan.

There are not really any mysteries with getting into Wolfbrother, and I look for basically the same things that I do with other clans when considering people. Are they reliable? Are they going to show up when I need help and not leave me in a lurch? Are they fair with gear and scalps, or do they squirrel things away? Are they invested in lightside as a whole? Are they invested in the clan as a community, or do they just want some bonuses? Are they willing to work with players who are worse than them, or are they elitists that will only take a fight when they have an advantage? Are they going to step up and lead when a leader is needed? Do they harass members of my clan, and would they create an uncomfortable environment? Can they keep a secret clan secret or are they going to leak like a sieve? Are they open to feedback, and actually able to change their behavior based on it? The last one is particularly important, because it's what can change the answers to the previous questions.

Maybe it would be better to have people advance faster through the process and get voted down, and a have a shot later on down the line. I don't know. Most people do not want actual feedback and think they're being personally targeted when they get it.

The objections to Gaidin requirements are super weird. If you don't have time to kill 10 masters to advance your character then you're not going to have time to advance your character after you clan, either. A lot of the Gaidin process is more about reputation building than anything.

Locked