Most of the causes already stated are right on point. The biggest thing that got brushed on a couple spots but never addressed was the progression on characters. DS has an ideal linear progression, where you start playing, you know exactly what you should be doing the entire route, and if you ever get stuck then you just go with the flow on what everyone else is doing. Start character -> level up -> join clan (doesnt matter a ton which you do) -> pk to master ->choose whether to go r8 or fade, if fade do tasks x, y, z.
For LS though, you can FAIRLY easily get into a clan if you aren't picky then it will take under 2 weeks, spend lots of time impressing people so they vote on you, try not to offend anyone or you may never make it into the unknown clans. get to befriend the right people so they can streamline you into the bonused clans or else you will never get invites/votes. Then start over on a new character once you are good enough that when you get into the clan you want then mastering is more of an afterthought.
I think that having players deciding when other players deserve to get bonuses is the single largest detriment to LS playability, both from a progressional standpoint and the increasing hostile feelings. There would be a ton of pushback and probably some grandfathering-in decisions needed to be made but honestly if we just made wb/kin/bt/gaidin all LS remorts that could be achieved from any of the appropriate clans/classes it would go so far towards curbing a lot of the favoritism and give everyone a clear goal that they are going towards. Playing off the same idea, make the aqp system reward for things like 1-aqp leading an smob, 3 bonus for herald chain, 20 aqp for being the leader in the room when a trolloc is killed, 5 aqp for leading an enemy cityhead hit etc, where in order to get into the highly bonused clan you have to have like 10,000 aqps of leading activities so that it incentivizes masters giving back to the community and leading things that newer players need, and continue at a slower progression for doing the same types of activites to keep the best potential leaders still engaged helping get things going.
What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?
Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?
A perfect example, KMG has an automated clanning system, all ranking is automated, and no other clan has any say over the progression of another char, to the point where we don't even have a council.
We also have a system of awards in place that will reward you much better if your other clan members do not post items in the market (if theres no competition in there then every item sold will be from you and every sale gets you qps), and the clanning quests are quite possibly inhumanly difficult to do without any assistance, so the "smart choice" would be to not help anyone, so you could be the only one in the clan and not give out any secrets on where to get items so that nobody else is posting the same things as you, and yet it is STILL arguably the most open and cooperative and friendly clan on LS.
I think that taking away the power of one player to progress another player would have similar results in all clans as it transfers the mental perception from "this person is the obstacle in my progression" to "this TASK is the obstacle in my progression and this PERSON is helping me achieve that"
We also have a system of awards in place that will reward you much better if your other clan members do not post items in the market (if theres no competition in there then every item sold will be from you and every sale gets you qps), and the clanning quests are quite possibly inhumanly difficult to do without any assistance, so the "smart choice" would be to not help anyone, so you could be the only one in the clan and not give out any secrets on where to get items so that nobody else is posting the same things as you, and yet it is STILL arguably the most open and cooperative and friendly clan on LS.
I think that taking away the power of one player to progress another player would have similar results in all clans as it transfers the mental perception from "this person is the obstacle in my progression" to "this TASK is the obstacle in my progression and this PERSON is helping me achieve that"
Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?
Unpopular opinion that nobody wants to hear:
The only player blocking your progression is (generalized) YOU.
Can speak for Kin/WB/Iron Fist/Gaidin, which is the majority of bonused/secret clans, that the weird “elitist’s are blocking my characters progression” stigma is pretty wrong.
In the span of probably the last 4? years, one person gave up on IF because a couple people said we hadn’t seen them playing during the vote, and they abstained. That person quit trying because of some misconceived notion that those of us who said that we abstained were gatekeeping and voting against them? Wild.
1. Shame on the the person who leaked forum information to them.
2. Shame on whoever put them up and did that, who went forward to make it seem like their effort was wasted.
3. I’m 100% certain they would have clanned without any problems whatsoever.
Kin, more people have clanned there, I believe there was one person who didn’t get clanned because they broke the rules and did something that isn’t any of your business but was a deal breaker for that specific character.
WB, have been open clanning for a while, to those who actually put in effort to functionally roleplay and try, instead of trying to offer us items/outright just ask to be clanned.
Gaidin, revamped clanning process that requires players to take matters into their own hands, and to prove themselves by providing logs and role playing seriously.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, you don’t want to actually try to progress your character besides saying “I’d like automated clanning and to be handed something because I deserve it,” you’re just looking for a participation trophy. Which is fine, but don’t blame and shame others who did put work into these things, who are trying to make it easier for you, for your lack of effort to do the same.
The only player blocking your progression is (generalized) YOU.
Can speak for Kin/WB/Iron Fist/Gaidin, which is the majority of bonused/secret clans, that the weird “elitist’s are blocking my characters progression” stigma is pretty wrong.
In the span of probably the last 4? years, one person gave up on IF because a couple people said we hadn’t seen them playing during the vote, and they abstained. That person quit trying because of some misconceived notion that those of us who said that we abstained were gatekeeping and voting against them? Wild.
1. Shame on the the person who leaked forum information to them.
2. Shame on whoever put them up and did that, who went forward to make it seem like their effort was wasted.
3. I’m 100% certain they would have clanned without any problems whatsoever.
Kin, more people have clanned there, I believe there was one person who didn’t get clanned because they broke the rules and did something that isn’t any of your business but was a deal breaker for that specific character.
WB, have been open clanning for a while, to those who actually put in effort to functionally roleplay and try, instead of trying to offer us items/outright just ask to be clanned.
Gaidin, revamped clanning process that requires players to take matters into their own hands, and to prove themselves by providing logs and role playing seriously.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, you don’t want to actually try to progress your character besides saying “I’d like automated clanning and to be handed something because I deserve it,” you’re just looking for a participation trophy. Which is fine, but don’t blame and shame others who did put work into these things, who are trying to make it easier for you, for your lack of effort to do the same.
Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?
Yeah, there's no need for autoclanning on secret clans. The debate on gatekeeping is really a waste of time at this point concerning them. Those who are in them say it's possible for anyone to make it if the stars are aligned (while being in all of them, so I guess the stars really aligned for them 
), to those who say it's impossible (which it's clearly not).
My point on autoclanning is that if you had something akin to EVA for a northern clan I think you would see greater potential for constant N PK which is what makes the game at its best. How many times does someone log on, narrate "pk?", get no response and log off? I'm giving LS a try on a few alts with applications in for clans which have a short time frame (1 week). Even 1 week for a newer player is going to probably be too long to wait to really feel like logging on as an unclanned seeing that you're at a massive disadvantage. SS autoclanning was great, do a few fun quests that immerse you into some SS background and boom, you're clanned and can start progressing. Why the resistance on LS?
), to those who say it's impossible (which it's clearly not). My point on autoclanning is that if you had something akin to EVA for a northern clan I think you would see greater potential for constant N PK which is what makes the game at its best. How many times does someone log on, narrate "pk?", get no response and log off? I'm giving LS a try on a few alts with applications in for clans which have a short time frame (1 week). Even 1 week for a newer player is going to probably be too long to wait to really feel like logging on as an unclanned seeing that you're at a massive disadvantage. SS autoclanning was great, do a few fun quests that immerse you into some SS background and boom, you're clanned and can start progressing. Why the resistance on LS?
Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?
It's likely because for many of us, the clanning process was where we formed lasting bonds and developed a strong sense of camaraderie. At this point, though, it is probably outdated. I'd be fine with all unbonused clans having quests to join.
Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?
I don't think we will move to auto-clanning on LS. Imms might get involved if a clan is completely dead and non-responsive but that's about it.
I added the EVA clanning because 1.) it is a stepping-stone clan to the "real" Seanchan clans and not the final clan itself, and 2.) the rote requirements to join lent themselves to that, and it was a good way to introduce Seanchan RP and some immersion. It gives players something to do while working towards one of the "real" clans, which I think is positive, but I don't think anyone would say EVA has a great sense of camaraderie or identity.
I agree with Aloisa that the clanning process is mostly about forming bonds with other players and developing a sense of camaraderie. I don't think that is outdated; the most "sticky" LS clans seem to still have those qualities. I think Red Eagles are an example of a clan that maintains those bonds but has also recently taken a look at making the clanning process short and easy. Ultimately that's really within player control.
I added the EVA clanning because 1.) it is a stepping-stone clan to the "real" Seanchan clans and not the final clan itself, and 2.) the rote requirements to join lent themselves to that, and it was a good way to introduce Seanchan RP and some immersion. It gives players something to do while working towards one of the "real" clans, which I think is positive, but I don't think anyone would say EVA has a great sense of camaraderie or identity.
I agree with Aloisa that the clanning process is mostly about forming bonds with other players and developing a sense of camaraderie. I don't think that is outdated; the most "sticky" LS clans seem to still have those qualities. I think Red Eagles are an example of a clan that maintains those bonds but has also recently taken a look at making the clanning process short and easy. Ultimately that's really within player control.
Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?
Its not that anyone is trying to block people from clanning, its just a roulette. Is there anyone in the clan you are trying to get into active, are they busy doing things or have time to interact with applicants, what the clans current policies are, etc. When i first was trying to clan damane, it wouldnt have mattered if i slayed the dark one and got the entire continent to swear the oaths, we wouldnt have been open for new clanning, and it was gonna be a year before id even be considered.
I have 13 clanned characters, 10 of which I attempted to join a clan by being active, doing quests, getting to know people and roleplaying. That worked for two of them. The rest was all being in the right place at the right time, plain and simple. If you want to get into a certain clan you basically have to put your application in (or have an application written for those that dont have open clanning) and play other characters until the stars align and do it then.
I have 13 clanned characters, 10 of which I attempted to join a clan by being active, doing quests, getting to know people and roleplaying. That worked for two of them. The rest was all being in the right place at the right time, plain and simple. If you want to get into a certain clan you basically have to put your application in (or have an application written for those that dont have open clanning) and play other characters until the stars align and do it then.
Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?
I don't think a single post here that was regarding clanning eluded to gatekeeping or anything of the like. People have only related bonused LS clans to the bonuses gained on DS. The process on DS is linear and open to everyone. It's a series of events that is very clearly laid forth with little requirement from subjective viewpoints of others.
One of the things that helped to stir clanning on DS and the relaxation of most clan requirements was the reward masters got for recruiting and clanning. It counted towards them remorting, so masters were more inclined to get people into their respective clans. I do not see the same sort of incentive or reward for LS clans. Mentorship and recruitment should carry rewards for those recruiting and mentoring.
I have often seen people make the case that the bonused characters on LS are similar strength to what a DS remort is. Because of this the process of entry should require X amount of effort that basically equates to the effort required to remort. Players who dictate who joins X bonused clan feels as though they should gate the bonuses in such clan behind goals that align with the time required to remort.
However, semi recently this similar discussion was brought up on a clan forum and a staff member stated (not verbatim I didn't feel bothered to look up the post for a direct quote) that it is not the duty of players to gate bonuses, that is the duty of the staff. As players we should only focus on clear and fair entry processes.
I personally feel anything that is not clear and accessible for every player who wishes to take the path is a misstep. We should move to do away with any subjective clanning procedures as a community and make all aspects of the game accessible through clear gameplay mechanics.
If anyone honestly feels that joining bonused and secret clans is open to everyone, it's all about how hard you want it, I would say RP a BT and lemme know when you get clanned. I'll give you a rare of your choosing.
One of the things that helped to stir clanning on DS and the relaxation of most clan requirements was the reward masters got for recruiting and clanning. It counted towards them remorting, so masters were more inclined to get people into their respective clans. I do not see the same sort of incentive or reward for LS clans. Mentorship and recruitment should carry rewards for those recruiting and mentoring.
I have often seen people make the case that the bonused characters on LS are similar strength to what a DS remort is. Because of this the process of entry should require X amount of effort that basically equates to the effort required to remort. Players who dictate who joins X bonused clan feels as though they should gate the bonuses in such clan behind goals that align with the time required to remort.
However, semi recently this similar discussion was brought up on a clan forum and a staff member stated (not verbatim I didn't feel bothered to look up the post for a direct quote) that it is not the duty of players to gate bonuses, that is the duty of the staff. As players we should only focus on clear and fair entry processes.
I personally feel anything that is not clear and accessible for every player who wishes to take the path is a misstep. We should move to do away with any subjective clanning procedures as a community and make all aspects of the game accessible through clear gameplay mechanics.
If anyone honestly feels that joining bonused and secret clans is open to everyone, it's all about how hard you want it, I would say RP a BT and lemme know when you get clanned. I'll give you a rare of your choosing.
Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?
I bed to differ on a couple peoples views on the ease or effort of clanning. I think it’s one of the silliest and teeth pulling processes. Sometimes it takes weeks or months. That’s fking absurd, like absolutely completely mind blowing. This game is like what 30 years old? It’s got maybe 20-50 active players at any given time. It’s like some people think it’s some leet level gaming or something great. Clanning should take a day or a couple days tops. There’s nothing that great about it, or this game that dictates such an epic amount of time wasted on pre approval lol. And I’d say that about any game. Like it’s absurd to wait days-weeks-months?!?! For a clan experience.
I can’t even fathom how many people it’s turned away from continuing to play. It’s mind blowing that it takes that much time and effort on a text based 30+year old game. Most people here have been here for a long time. They’re all experienced. And who really gives two shits if they’re not. Lol I mean come on. It’s really childish to make people wait that long to enjoy a simple game. If someone wants a warder or a dha’vol or a raken or whatever just let it happen lol. Why does it have to go through this long timely process. Set tasks mostly easily obtained without the silliness of humanity involved.
Any master I’ve had and had decent sway in a clan or cared to try to change has been pretty simple. I’d just basically clan them, ask a few questions. Let them know expectations etc. And a lot of my clanned people can attest to this. Wether it be the companions (slightly same though very small), deathwatch (for a good time anyways until oldies that never played whined), torm (same as dw), queens guard (same after certain players resurfaced/imm) It was all pretty simple, quick and painless clanning. Because I know all to well the wait some of these clans offer. It’s silly. And what’s really silly is I’ve personally had masters in some clans, deleted and retried only to be turned down. Or take ages and ages to get in, weeks, months only to be denied. Or just lose the will because fk it lol.
At this point I just join whatever is easiest and gives me the less fuss. Because dam man it’s absurd to waste so much time of pre clanning and waiting and waiting. And tbh who cares about bonuses. They’re nice but screw the waiting and effort. Some people got it easier than others. And people will say that’s not true. But it’s laughable, specially when you see it happen over and over. I don’t clan people because they’re my friends or I know them. I clan them because I want them to have fun in whatever clan they choose. And not have to wait doing so. People create the red tape, even if it’s just inactivity.
Like there’s an experienced player right now that’s been waiting weeks to clan I’ve seen. In a silly non bonused clan. I mean come on lol. And no it’s not me. I just see it constantly. And it’s just dumb to me. I don’t get why wotmud of all games has to take so long to start your clanned careers. Beating a dead horse but. Not everyone’s experience here is the same. So when someone well known or liked here posts discrediting the silly ness of clanning and claiming it’s ease or it’s just an effort thing it makes me laugh.
I can’t even fathom how many people it’s turned away from continuing to play. It’s mind blowing that it takes that much time and effort on a text based 30+year old game. Most people here have been here for a long time. They’re all experienced. And who really gives two shits if they’re not. Lol I mean come on. It’s really childish to make people wait that long to enjoy a simple game. If someone wants a warder or a dha’vol or a raken or whatever just let it happen lol. Why does it have to go through this long timely process. Set tasks mostly easily obtained without the silliness of humanity involved.
Any master I’ve had and had decent sway in a clan or cared to try to change has been pretty simple. I’d just basically clan them, ask a few questions. Let them know expectations etc. And a lot of my clanned people can attest to this. Wether it be the companions (slightly same though very small), deathwatch (for a good time anyways until oldies that never played whined), torm (same as dw), queens guard (same after certain players resurfaced/imm) It was all pretty simple, quick and painless clanning. Because I know all to well the wait some of these clans offer. It’s silly. And what’s really silly is I’ve personally had masters in some clans, deleted and retried only to be turned down. Or take ages and ages to get in, weeks, months only to be denied. Or just lose the will because fk it lol.
At this point I just join whatever is easiest and gives me the less fuss. Because dam man it’s absurd to waste so much time of pre clanning and waiting and waiting. And tbh who cares about bonuses. They’re nice but screw the waiting and effort. Some people got it easier than others. And people will say that’s not true. But it’s laughable, specially when you see it happen over and over. I don’t clan people because they’re my friends or I know them. I clan them because I want them to have fun in whatever clan they choose. And not have to wait doing so. People create the red tape, even if it’s just inactivity.
Like there’s an experienced player right now that’s been waiting weeks to clan I’ve seen. In a silly non bonused clan. I mean come on lol. And no it’s not me. I just see it constantly. And it’s just dumb to me. I don’t get why wotmud of all games has to take so long to start your clanned careers. Beating a dead horse but. Not everyone’s experience here is the same. So when someone well known or liked here posts discrediting the silly ness of clanning and claiming it’s ease or it’s just an effort thing it makes me laugh.