What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?

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Aureus
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What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?

Post by Aureus » Thu Dec 22, 2022 6:13 pm

You've probably noticed, but we are trying to eliminate some of the challenges that make LS more tedious or difficult to play than DS (horse changes, etc.). LS is supposed to be the "easier" side and DS/SS the "more experienced/harder" sides that cater to a more hardcore and PK-focused player, but over the years it seems like player perception has swapped to where folks sometimes recommend new players check out a trolloc instead.

I know there are a few things that contribute to this:

Mechanics differences:
  • Easier to manage moves (no horse management, easy for fades/dreadlords to compel/refresh you, etc.) as a trolloc
  • Don't need a lantern
  • Easier to tell if you're about to get attacked due to smells
World differences:
  • Smobs grouped together up north, close to safe cities
  • Smobs grouped together in Blighted zones that are super nasty to LS and have a movement malus
  • DS zones used to feel more dangerous, including to DS, but mostly-DS-friendly zones like n of RK were introduced
  • DS intro quests in the infirm trolloc and Warden are more helpful than Clive et al on LS
Community differences:
  • Presence of same-side PK on LS
  • Centralized leader roles in fades/dreadlords
  • Easier to clan on DS
Some of this stuff we're working on, but any others you want to add to the list that make LS harder and DS easier would be good to call out. I plan to chip away at some of the stuff that's under our control over time, to try to get back to LS being an easier choice to recommend to new players.

Please note: I'm not looking for hating on one side or the other, or complaining about how "easy" one side has it. Maybe you're right, but that isn't really useful feedback. This is meant to be constructive, so I'll prune unhelpful posts to keep it productive for me.

Vannor
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Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?

Post by Vannor » Thu Dec 22, 2022 6:43 pm

Less bullshit, feels more 'casual' and/or 'welcoming' than LS.

Centralised rank structure means there's less grounds for drama

Also zones are centralised, so help for things is much more accessible. Ie: someone in cairhien needing a hand and your help is coming from maradon versus being keep and your help is coming from idk, lockshear or something.

None of this is something you can realistically improve about LS aside from maybe the zones thing.

Bringing back an EoTW mechanic for LS true newbies would be beneficial, as it's much less overwhelming to get dropped in RK than it is to be dropped in Kintara with the whole wide world around you.

I also think newbies should start off in EF, not Caemlyn, and the newbie helpers be characters from the books

Rig
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Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?

Post by Rig » Thu Dec 22, 2022 6:47 pm

DS hasn’t been the “experienced/hard” side since we gave out the moves bonus/started awarding quest points for smobbing/made strength teas and vials as common as abs equipment off of SK/added portal stones anyone can use/made a mappable ways system.

Before that, it was always “easier” to pk on than LS because of less required management (horses/lanterns) better mob support tailored towards low - big numbers pk, trolloc thieves basically being stattable stabby wolfbrothers, and the fact that the rest of DS were always hard hitters, against humans that are primarily forced to play combo and dodge to make up for fighting outnumbered consistently.

There isn’t going to be anything that changes the “experienced side” back into the experienced side unless you were to start the game from scratch.

On top of that, DS has more of a teamwork culture than LS does. I can log on and ask for a weapon and someone will give me one. A trolloc can log on naked and ask if we have a set laying around and they’ll have one 5 minutes later from us hitting a smob or using a clan chest. Not something you’re going to effectively change when LS has the outliers of darkfriends/same siders/seanchan/politics/base-line rp forcing people to not be as cohesive as DS.

Rig
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Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?

Post by Rig » Thu Dec 22, 2022 6:54 pm

Now I’ll make this post a LS centric version one!

LS is better for just about everything PvE. More smobs, more money, more variety. More exploration, less risk of being encountered, etc.

Recent changes to LS have been big QoL improvements. Think those are great. However I think the problem is being misconstrued between what is actually easy.

You’re going to find that smobbing and exploration are easier. Due to plethora of active Gaidin for smobbing, channelers for firepower in smobbing/pk, clanned channelers using Gate, mounted OB bonus, ability to horse hop, better practices, the list can go on and on.

Rig
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Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?

Post by Rig » Thu Dec 22, 2022 7:10 pm

Fast travel differences:

Portal stones:
Work for both LS and DS. Gives 0 clue as to where someone is going. Most, if not all at this point, are no hide for some incredibly odd reason. Get out of jail free/safety card. Easy for both sides.

Flame:
Two-way between every DS city if you don’t have no quit. (Except Deception Pass, which is Ko’bal and remorts only due to the rp and since Ko’bal own Deception Pass.) Easy access to rents/storage. One way flame into blodfest. (Two way flame for Ahf’frait.)

Coaches:
Give at least an inclination of where someone is going, easy travel system that is slower than just horse hopping for the lazy.

Boats:
Constantly abused because they don’t have a no quit check anymore (at least some don’t)

Naturally just a DT for anyone who engages in combat, the mobs in a few places will just DT you for aggroing them in some cities where you enter boats. No inclination as to where someone is going. Sometimes need a captain hat.

Rig
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Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?

Post by Rig » Thu Dec 22, 2022 7:15 pm

Leadership:

DS:
Usually experienced leaders tend to lead/play often on DS. It’s just easier when everyone is abs and if they die you can equip them quick, and you know that people will listen to you (for the most part.)

LS:
Gets chaotic for leaders quite often. People lose high-end gear, they get mad, they blame the leader and the pk. Happens on both sides, but most often on LS. More management between horses/being poisoned/fear/mobs support being either way too little or way too strong. Harder to equip someone after a bad death if you aren’t able to kill DS blight.


LS would benefit hugely from primary active leaders. But there’s just not much of a reason to bother. I went and played primarily LS for a good couple years, ended with rank 8 wolfbrother/master warder/channeler and felt like there wasn’t anything else left to achieve.

I can go play DS and play my trollocs or even Rig and have a consistent goal in mind, because there’s something rewarding at pretty much every point.

Yaerin
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Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?

Post by Yaerin » Thu Dec 22, 2022 9:02 pm

1. Mob support. Particularly up north, mob support has always been designed around the idea that DS is mostly fighting outnumbered and outgunned. As a result, it's much easier to fight outnumbered and outgunned on, say, a trolloc abser than on a human abser. LS mob support swings between smob-like patties and super weak mobs, without much in between. There have been some recent improvements (Kajin n exit, commy moving 1d, perma load and scannable rooms at Ragan), and some poor changes (sarges no longer loading on west part of dusty, which really hurts low numbers PK.) LS also has to consider factors like no-rides, which can create real difficulties with using zones like Lockshear, or when the blands patty ends up outside the no-ride rooms in blands. Additionally, most of LS has to think about horse-targetting, which inhibits the ability to stick around low even when grouped when others - or you're gimping yourself by dismounting. Stedding is probably the best model for a LS defensive zone currently, but even that comes at the cost of nerfing your own side if you have channies.

My suggestion: more mid-range LS mob support across the map, remove horse targetting, return sarges to west part of Kajin zone for small numbers PK.

2. The recent changes have removed the need for trollocs to manage moves as a real resource. Combine this with the fact that DS has more and better options for mob support, and you're looking at a lot more situations where you have to chase much farther on LS to finish kills, and DS always gets to pick its ideal mob support. That means large sections of the map just get bypassed, even when mob support is available. It used to be the case that trolloc mvs were stronger from full (or when quaffing), but were weaker the more PK stayed in motion. Now there's no point when horses feel stronger, except when you have ideal horse-hopping. Combine that with the fact that there's always the possibility of losing your horse, and trolloc moves are just easier. I do think a buff was in order, but that it's over-tuned to the extent that moves are no longer a resource to be managed. That's both for trollocs and horses. The only times over the last few months that I've felt harried from moves was when I completely overextended while chasing dismount through Blight.

Also, I believe that hunger/thirst don't affect the new survival mvs, which seems like a bug.

My suggestion: I can see a number of possibilites:
  • remove flat 1 mv / survival level
    a higher bar for less regen (it's very easy to stay above hagg)
    less regen when bleeding (this might just incentivize running at higher hps, which would not be productive)
Whatever the changes, I think they should return to something like the previous state where horses are going to feel better than trolloc moves over a long distance, though not to the same extreme as before. It just feels silly when trolls can run from Braem to blands without having to expend any resources or have to think about mob support in between.

3. LS has always gutted itself from the inside: factions that can't group with each other; pedantic warranting rules; darkfriends (known and unknown) working to help the enemy side; justice clans with no bonuses; no long-term end-game. There have been some positive changes in this regard, like some of the nerfs to darkfriends (scalp awards are probably too brutal).

My suggestions: focus on bonuses, improvements, or possibly new skills for justice clans - for instance, something like a 10% damage bonus against wanteds. In addition, I would remove all warranting rules besides breaking houseguest rules for griefing. Give clans autonomy to come up with their own warranting rules. If someone (Adael) wants to RP a corrupt and petty little lord, they can be dealt with by their own clan or through violence. If someone (Adael) is griefing by warranting all of player's alts without them actually doing anything, they can be dealt with harshly. As long as justice clans come with no bonuses and a bunch of annoying bullshit, they're going to be a hard sell outside of whatever periodic comradery bubbles up.

4. LS has to deal with more random annoyances in PK, like fear and poison, which can be reacted to but can't be played around in any real way. LS also has to deal with way more problems with track, including from trollocs exploiting the sneak bug. The increase in snow has not helped that. My understanding is that staff don't currently have access to track coding, but that would be one of the things at the top of my list for addressing.

5. 21 Str warriors with a high OB weapon don't have to do much more than spam. Combine that with how easy it already is to be a trolloc and you're going to end up with what we have.

6. Shadoweyes are mega overloaded right now. It's good for players to be able to find each other, but it creates a lot of asymmetry and more danger for LS just moving around the map.

7. I'm sure this will be unpopular, but it might a consideration lowering DS scalp awards.

Prykor
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Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?

Post by Prykor » Fri Dec 23, 2022 12:29 am

>What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?

I do not believe this is the case, however, I will list out the reasons why I find DS more enjoyable to play:

1 -- Comradery and Leadership. I believe Rig covered the leadership part well enough, but the comradery is even more important. With most folks being abs, if somebody dies in PK, we smob for them and get them re-eq'd. When people act like Ftards, they get put in line (or left to die, there are some options there). Very strong meritorious system in place for leadership and 'social cred' to leaders, and enough fall-backs and safety nets that most people will be willing to give many folks several chances!
Meanwhile on LS, there is a lot of hesitancy to group up when there isn't on the well-respected leaders around, and a lot of resentment all around when things don't go well (at least, from the folks to exclusively play LS it feels like).


2 -- easier to hit, better loading smobs
This is primarily with regard to Abs, but between the Spectral King, Najdeer, and the Renegade Commander, you have a replacement abs set ready to go. These can be solo'd or duo'd with ease, with the intention of abs set ups doing them. The combo re-eq smobs are a bit more challenging, either in less safe areas, or requiring a larger group, but still not bad.
This makes re-eq less of a pain in the butt for DS, and while on LS you can re-eq even easier (take 500 crowns into luggard, and you get yourself a full set + trinkets back). The blessing and curse is that you can easilly get enough coin in advance to cover your re-eq, so its sort of expected of you to have already done that -- it turns re-eq from a social activity to a solo activity, which hurts the overall enjoyment of it for me.

A lot of the DS smob philosophy has been moved to LS smobs as of recent, and with the herald and clan daily smob bonuses....I'm honestly shocked, it should NOT be as hard as it is to get a LS smob group going, yet it is. Though, I'm sure once the folks got their daily allotment of QPS, they are done smobbing for the day.

That isn't to say that there isn't a number of kind souls who will help you out if you log in naked and have no back-up eq around, but it's a very different feeling when it's a concentrated effort by the entire who list just to help you -- but it's more than that, they are helping you, so you can help them. Good vibes beget more good vibes.


3 -- SUGGESTIONS

I see two main issues.
First is cultural. Outside of DS, the "fight, die, re-eq, repeat" mentality doesn't really exisist. I don't believe making eq even easier to get will help with this, as we are already dangerously close to DM-mud territory. Equipment should be meaningful, to an extent. Deaths should be meaningful as well. But, the culture needs to have some level of acceptance that death will happen, and more incentive to be more aggressive and take more risks. There needs to be more "early bird gets the worm" and less "second mouse gets the cheese!" with the core mechanics.

The second comes from goals. THere is no reward for second place, either you win or you die. This leads to certain goal-oriented behaviours by a good handful of folks, where they need kills to advance but the more guaranteed ways to get kills are less fun -- either targeting the newer/lower experienced pkers (especially with weaves, focusing them first in group fights), or dooring and other gank sort of tactics that are effective at getting the kill, but less exciting and counter to the spirit of pk back and forth where the side with the combat advantage needs to take some level of risk to push for the victory.

I would recommend adding some qp rewards for logs posted for pk that aren't from the side of the victor -- let's see the close fights that came down to a bash landing or missing on which one died, or overextending a bit too far when you had the advantage.... or even noting when you are disadvantaged yet the other side ran to support...ending the pk for the moment. Sometimes the best decision is the boring one, but good judgement should still be rewarded.
I would also recommend a northern borderguard clan drive, making scalps worth 11 qps to the lancers and cavalry for a while. If DS is being a plague on the LS playerbase, keep them occupied -- you may be surprised, when there's a lot of back and foreth pk up north, it draws interest from all sides, and let's the litle fiefdoms that are doing their own thing elsewhere in the word safe from the trolls (for the most part).

Detritus
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Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?

Post by Detritus » Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:12 am

Humans losing mvs while mounted to terrain.
Survival changes for trolloc sustainability were a bit extreme.

LS has much more sporadic clan activity to be able to get clanned and construct progressible goals for a character.
(there's people that have clanned alts they dont play on discord but actually doing anything in game with active people in clans or to get clanned is completely unviable in some play times)

Tusty
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Re: What are things that make LS harder to play than DS?

Post by Tusty » Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:42 am

I'll give my thoughts from the standpoint of one who hasn't played LS or DS in probably 20 years. DS/SS have one focus and that is to raid/kill LS all over the map. LS on the other hand can pk or as often as not run away or sit afk in towns across the land. Some RP as non-pkers or due to distance can't come help and so new players often get smoked as there aren't enough people with the same PK goal in mind as SS/DS, where nobody RPs a pacifist. As others have already said, having a more recognizable leadership pecking order makes it easier for new players to just follow someone successful and reap the benefits.
In my opinion, LS would greatly benefit from an autoclanning process in the same mold as the EVA. You don't have to have the help of anyone to clan and can immediately start moving your character towards something. It seems like a no brainer to make one of the northern clans like EVA. Perhaps make a secondary chest available for R4 and under and just keep it filled with abs/decent weapons for re-eq.
The current state of the game really demands a pared down focus. LS just can't sustain a huge variance in direction as there aren't enough people to work in various factions to have any cohesion. The last LS char I really played was my first char Lion Warden. Caemlyn was always bustling, smob groups meeting on Skywalk, same side bandits roaming 4k etc. I would assume nowadays as an LS newb - clanning LW would essentially mean that you would spend most of your time in FD with the off chance of SS pk in Andor or smobbing.

As for mob support, horse moves, trolloc moves, etc etc.. those things are mostly fine. LS just needs pared down direction until numbers grow. Then maybe you get back to the days of Iron Fist vs Lion Warden in 4k.

TLDR: Make a northern clan like EVA and adopt a better leadership hierarchy.

Anyways, that's my thoughts for what they're worth.

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