Are players leaving?

[Ghast]

I debated on adding my thoughts here, but I've got an outsider's perspective so I thought I'd share if it helps anyone.

I played this game 20ish years ago (oldest character is ~850) and just started playing again before the TV series kicked off. I've been playing heavily into one character (Ghast) because I always wanted to join Ko'bal and eventually remort. Later, I heard they were kicking around a grayman remort, of which I was a huge fan, so I made that the goal.

Before I get too much further, I must acknowledge that yes, I have been maining a trolloc rogue and yes, everyone seems to hate them, so you may discount my thoughts below or ignore them entirely.

The rundown of changes to the game (as posted by Jaster on page 2 of this thread) that have directly affected Ghast have been so eerily timed that I have been wondering if any were a direct result of Ghast's actions. Every time I hit a milestone, something was nerfed that made it a less enjoyable achievement. Notice and backstab costing mvs, posture bonuses changing right after I mastered, no grayman remort option, 2h daggers removed just as I crafted enough to be using them full-time, the list goes on.

The obvious response is "well just go play a different character if you don't like it," and I have dabbled with that, but was that the intention of the staff? If that's the case, why not just remove the trolloc rogue as a class entirely?

A few parting thoughts regarding "the old boy's club" mentality: I witnessed this 20 years ago where if you were an outsider or didn't fit in with certain players, you would never be able to get into clans or advance in ways you wanted, and it didn't seem to matter how skilled you were at RP or PK. It was a large part of the reason I stopped playing back then, and I'm feeling a bit discouraged again now because it seems that hasn't changed much in the time I was away.

It seems like a real strategy for players nowadays is to figure out everyone's alts and then play the player, which gives them a huge advantage because they know certain characters won't be online if they see others online. I don't really have a solution for this but I think it sucks and character separation should be a bigger deal.

[Itesh]

Something about bloodies.

Sorry, I'm using my phone and it's a pain to work with huge chunks of text.

We haven't changed anything about how tracks work - we don't have the file to work on tracks in any form (except, weirdly, doling out autotrack like candy).

[zankou]

Something about bloodies.

Sorry, I'm using my phone and it's a pain to work with huge chunks of text.

We haven't changed anything about how tracks work - we don't have the file to work on tracks in any form (except, weirdly, doling out autotrack like candy).

Does that mean you’re giving dreadlords autotrack?

[Itesh]

Something about bloodies.

Sorry, I'm using my phone and it's a pain to work with huge chunks of text.

We haven't changed anything about how tracks work - we don't have the file to work on tracks in any form (except, weirdly, doling out autotrack like candy).

Does that mean you’re giving dreadlords autotrack?

Negatory, good buddy.

[Aloisa]

The rundown of changes to the game (as posted by Jaster on page 2 of this thread) that have directly affected Ghast have been so eerily timed that I have been wondering if any were a direct result of Ghast's actions. Every time I hit a milestone, something was nerfed that made it a less enjoyable achievement. Notice and backstab costing mvs, posture bonuses changing right after I mastered, no grayman remort option, 2h daggers removed just as I crafted enough to be using them full-time, the list goes on.

I can see why you would see a relationship between the two, but I really don't think it's the case. Imms have been tinkering with stab quite a bit the last two years, and it seems like they finally settled on what they want it to be. A high damage skill that has a lot of tradeoffs. I have a master kobal, I like my kobal, and I have played it a bit since the changes to get a sense of them. It's definitely not as strong as it was, you're right about that and you did miss a window where they were probably the most powerful stat-able character in the game. However, as you and many other still active trolloc rogues are showing, it's still a very powerful class and you can get tons of kills. There's just trade offs now. I play my trolloc rogue full dodge 1h stab and it goes well, I know you have lots of success and other players do too. So things changed and definitely got downed, but I think people who commit to it will still excel at it like any class. I don't think immortals have made any of these decisions with an individual player in mind, more a commentary on the trend of trolloc rogues as a whole.

A few parting thoughts regarding "the old boy's club" mentality: I witnessed this 20 years ago where if you were an outsider or didn't fit in with certain players, you would never be able to get into clans or advance in ways you wanted, and it didn't seem to matter how skilled you were at RP or PK. It was a large part of the reason I stopped playing back then, and I'm feeling a bit discouraged again now because it seems that hasn't changed much in the time I was away.

As a social game, I think there is always the chance that people will block you based on who you are. I know it's happened in the past, and I know players have felt it has happened to them. However, I think if you have a good attitude and do the work you can get into just about any clan. Gaidin is a great example of a clan with all the bonuses that require a specific set of tasks and then baseline rp/being kind. If you do those things you get clanned. Red Ajah another clan where we will clan any apprentice who does the tasks required of them. These are competitive clans with bonuses and not-so-simple tasks, but anyone who does them can get in.

If any player feels blocked because of who they are as a player, I hope they will report it to staff. No one should be ruining the game for other people, or limiting their options.

[Raspen]

I debated on adding my thoughts here, but I've got an outsider's perspective so I thought I'd share if it helps anyone.

I played this game 20ish years ago (oldest character is ~850) and just started playing again before the TV series kicked off. I've been playing heavily into one character (Ghast) because I always wanted to join Ko'bal and eventually remort. Later, I heard they were kicking around a grayman remort, of which I was a huge fan, so I made that the goal.

Before I get too much further, I must acknowledge that yes, I have been maining a trolloc rogue and yes, everyone seems to hate them, so you may discount my thoughts below or ignore them entirely.

The rundown of changes to the game (as posted by Jaster on page 2 of this thread) that have directly affected Ghast have been so eerily timed that I have been wondering if any were a direct result of Ghast's actions. Every time I hit a milestone, something was nerfed that made it a less enjoyable achievement. Notice and backstab costing mvs, posture bonuses changing right after I mastered, no grayman remort option, 2h daggers removed just as I crafted enough to be using them full-time, the list goes on.

The obvious response is "well just go play a different character if you don't like it," and I have dabbled with that, but was that the intention of the staff? If that's the case, why not just remove the trolloc rogue as a class entirely?

A few parting thoughts regarding "the old boy's club" mentality: I witnessed this 20 years ago where if you were an outsider or didn't fit in with certain players, you would never be able to get into clans or advance in ways you wanted, and it didn't seem to matter how skilled you were at RP or PK. It was a large part of the reason I stopped playing back then, and I'm feeling a bit discouraged again now because it seems that hasn't changed much in the time I was away.

It seems like a real strategy for players nowadays is to figure out everyone's alts and then play the player, which gives them a huge advantage because they know certain characters won't be online if they see others online. I don't really have a solution for this but I think it sucks and character separation should be a bigger deal.

First, good post and thanks for sharing. I think your trajectory on Ghast and the changes implemented were not about you or even a generation of stabbers. It really has been a long time coming. The reality is it comes down to coding releases as they are approved. If anything they would have happened sooner than your outlined goals. The direction is, as Aloisa noted, making sure there are cons aligned with pros. Something the channie class has gone through multiple iterations.

[myzec]

It did feel weird that the players playing the class most actively were not engaged before the changes were made. I totally see why Ghast would have come to the conclusions he stated. It seems Raspen and Aloisa (who seem to support the changes) are much more aware of the change conversations than the rest of us. Perhaps if these changes are being discussed over a 2 year period it would help if the thinking was more transparent (outside of an exclusive group) and the people most impacted (those maining the class) are informed or consulted. That being said when the changes were made I asked the imm driving the change a lot of questions and while I did not agree/like all the responses I really appreciated them engaging in the discussion.

Update: On reflection my post did imply things I did not intend. I am not trying to say there is a secret group of imm influencers. I am trying to say that more discussion is good and would in my view help people feel heard and understand the thinking behind the change.

[Aloisa]

It did feel weird that the players playing the class most actively were not engaged before the changes were made. I totally see why Ghast would have come to the conclusions he stated. It seems Raspen and Aloisa (who seem to support the changes) are much more aware of the change conversations than the rest of us. Perhaps if these changes are being discussed over a 2 year period it would help if the thinking was more transparent (outside of an exclusive group) and the people most impacted (those maining the class) are informed or consulted. That being said when the changes were made I asked the imm driving the change a lot of questions and while I did not agree/like all the responses I really appreciated them engaging in the discussion.

None of this were things I knew in advance. I was making assumptions about immortal intentions based on things Aureus and Vampa have said in the discord.

[Raspen]

Harun,

The only people that ever treated me bad, called me names, and talked dung every chance they could get were your WB friends and Spyder... I have sat down over a bowl of the best PHO on the planet with you once Harun, and you have always been cool to me. But every instance of toxic dung-throwing at me was from that group. I got called crazy ass names in PK... and every chance they could get they would post replies on alts trying to counter anything I said. It finally got to the point where I had to leave the main Discord, because I was told it wasn't considered harassment when I brought it to game admin. I'm leaving because the staff is biased towards their friends and do not treat all players equally. I have helped dozens and dozens of players over the years... have a long list of DMs of me setting up peoples clients, making custom stuff for them... even the REEEEES too. Find one person not in that group that ever said I was rude, toxic, a cheater or a liar... you can't.

But at some point, when you continue to be treated in an abusive way, you have to see the relationship isn't healthy and move on. That is what I am doing. That is why I am leaving WoTMUD, a game I started playing in 1998.

Best of luck, and Go Dawgs!

Hi Tazier, I don't think I ever interacted with Tazier directly and maybe I did on alts but never really knew. I do know there was some friction which you were at least a knowing participant. One was in game where direct attacks were made which incited in game responses. I didn't really understand your motives but there must have been something.

The other (happened before the first point) was the posting of all WB bonuses on the Wiki but not posting all other secret clans at the same time. Definitely felt that was out of line. If you are going to do the freedom of information no probs, just put every clan out there. I really would like to know some secrets of BTs, Kin, or some of the juicer dark gifts out there but alas its not for my eyes. And there was also something in there I hadn't realized and really wished I had the opportunity to find out for myself... From my perspective, it seemed you had an axe to grind and again for no reason I was aware of and more importantly how did you get the information? It was escalated to immortals and noted it was not appropriate to post clan information. Again, from my point, I believe this skewed your view of the staff and wb clan members.

As far as people being a jerk to you in pk, in tells, curses, or wherever, call them out. I know for a fact people have been temp banned, lost qps, or been perma banned. Regardless if they are friends or not, same deal. You do the crime do the time. Ironically (or maybe just sadly) Harun is that guy who calls them all out if they are friends or not.

[Yeri]

Yeah Myzec, you've got a tooon of assumptions in there that aren't warranted.

Coding changes in general, as anyone frequenting the Discord knows by now, are pretty random - they happen when Flash gets around to them. So anywhere from 0-6 months after a change is written and submitted for approval, they happen (or they're sent back for rewriting or denied).

@Ghast - yeah, you got unlucky. Reyne went into detail about her frustrations with channies getting nerfed so much - it's the same thing for trolloc rogues. As mentioned above, there's a long lead time for coding changes, so nothing was a result of your actions in all likelihood. Graymen changing was mentioned on the discord in public channels and was planned to be that way for some time, and the daggers changing follows a general trend of really good, prac-saving weapons being problematic and getting nerfed - you weren't around for the 2h defensive lblades meta, but those got removed for pretty similar reasons.

Also, consulting mains of a class can be useful, but also literally no one likes to see their main get nerfed so it can result in biased information getting passed along, not to mention the difficulties in ascertaining who 'mains' a class enough to be worth consulting. I can easily see why you would do it the way that the Imms did.