Are players leaving?

... sit down, kick back and relax, and talk about anything that doesn't belong on one of the other forums.
Prykor
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2022 8:56 pm

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by Prykor » Fri May 06, 2022 3:15 pm

Rodger wrote:
Fri May 06, 2022 12:48 pm
I hear that Jaefar and the immortals I believe have a fairly strict policy of not progressing the storyline... but the way for this game to be both of what you said (fun with numbers and without) would be a little bit of organized questing.

Elysia's Portal stone quest opened up a bookish and very interesting way to write and have players experience quests without any lasting effect to our timeline...
I'm all for DS versions of cities that last until boot or for a week or something -- Razing fall dara or Maradon to a pile of bricks and smoldering ash, the gates knocked over with new exits connecting to the outside though large gaping holes in what used to be the city's walls, with trolloc patrols along the battle scarred road ways where guards used to be, half of the buildings razed, the ones left with DS merchants, and a named Fade patty sitting on Angelmar's dismembered corpse. Would be a great set piece to use for DS master quests, or Fade quest... give that a bit more gravitas than an old-shout for an important character changing event that only comes out about as often as the Xmas zone.

Chloro
Posts: 427
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:21 pm

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by Chloro » Mon May 09, 2022 12:28 pm

To make it fun and revive some places people do not normally go to. Use Maradon in the north, and Treetop village? Breath some life into those clans while providing a challenge for those that don't normally go there.

Theia
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:41 pm

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by Theia » Fri May 13, 2022 1:29 am

Wow, this thread literally took me 3 weeks to read, that's how much free time I have these days.

I've left this game a couple of times, and got sucked back in by it. Imm abuse, boredom, drama, stress. The truth is that this game has an uncanny specialness to it that does keep people playing for years, and coming back. A major part of that is the countless hours that imms have put into the game. Game balance is notoriously difficult, and the more features you introduce, the harder it becomes. There is also the playerbase to consider.

I have many opinions on all sorts of aspects of the game, but ultimately the reason that I have not returned is because the type of player that I am has changed. I no longer have the time to spend hours and hours logged in. The game is vastly different when your playtime is reduced.

I've tried everything in the game, and although I have had fun with many aspects, I like what I like, and what I like the most is pk. For me, if I do not play a lot, I get rusty really quickly. That results in dying more often. At one point, I learned enough about all the smobs that I could do a solo rekit of a decent (not perfect), but playable set in 45 minutes (not possible anymore). I didn't have to rely on anyone else, waste time putting a group together, or harass anyone else to go out with me. When you play the game all day long, 45 minutes is peanuts. Now, I'm lucky if I can even get a 45 minute period to play a game. 10-15 minutes 4 days a week is typical, or might stretch to 45 minutes 1-2 times per week, and once a month I can spend 3-4 hours. If I binge and go over that and lose out on sleep it drastically affects every other aspect of my life. Also, I'm not saying changes are bad, but I can't keep up with them.

PK is a lot of running around looking for someone to kill, and for short time periods I'd rather not show up and skew numbers for 10 minutes unless there's an imbalance already. A decent session is definitely possible in 45 mins. However, if I die, unless someone shows up with a kit before I have to leave, it can take weeks to rekit. Even if I did store more things, it would still take an entire game session running around to rents to get redressed. And I still need to find the time to farm the gold for that. Cairhien used to be nice. Or I could take the 10-15 minutes and get a guaranteed matchmade fps/moba/card game.

The time spent comparatively with the level of entertainment that I get from the game for me is just better spent elsewhere.

Astolfo
Posts: 554
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:16 pm
Location: Lost in Space!

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by Astolfo » Sat May 14, 2022 2:07 am

Does seem like it. But it has seemed like that for at least a decade for me. Numbers wise, yeah at a definite low ebb. Not sure how much larger it will get back, if ever. Not sure what can be done to get people to stay. Staff who are around are actively engaged in doing stuff it seems, and doing some great things.

I am on the Discord alot more than the game nowadays, though I log on to die smobbing or pking once a month maybe. Mud is still enough fun for me to do that.

Who knows, maybe there are a couple more revivals in the coming years still in Wotmud before Flash pulls the plug. Time will only tell.

myzec
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:40 pm

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by myzec » Mon May 16, 2022 12:27 pm

I think I joined 2 pk sessions in the last two months and have played around 4 hours. I am struggling to find the motivation to log in. I think it’s that I don’t have any goals I’m excited about and Most of my friends play very infrequently. I am however excited about the daily quests introduced. I might try complete a few of them this weekend. Is Ds expected to also get these quests?

Dimmu
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:38 am

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by Dimmu » Mon May 16, 2022 1:12 pm

myzec wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 12:27 pm
. . I am however excited about the daily quests introduced. I might try complete a few of them this weekend. Is Ds expected to also get these quests?
Possible, yes. Probable, no.

Mhaliah
Posts: 873
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:48 am

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by Mhaliah » Mon May 16, 2022 5:29 pm

This is not well organized it just my thoughts.

I think we can all use a dose of "It's a game, dont take it too seriously." I know WoTMUD has gotten me through some of the worst times of my life. It would not be a stretch to say this game had a significant role in keeping me alive irl. I definitely have gotten overly invested at times and been devastated by what seemed to be arbitrary rulings without notice and no chance to defend myself. I took a break and put the game back into perspective. It is a game. I know that is probably not well received by people who have seen their clans gutted by recent changes, had all those moonstone hilted dirks stashed, or are otherwise in that moment of feeling it. That is just what I had to do. Sometimes change sucks.

I never really loved PK. I am definitely a "PvE with a group" player at the core. I like RP a lot too, but not for being 100% IC all the time.

I sense the most animosity from those who mostly PK A(honorably) vs mostly PK B(any allowable means necessary), and between PK style A&B vs players who get master rank without a lot of PK. I understand both of these situations. The PK vs PK crew needs balance and fair gamesmanship etc. And the direct competition can lead to antagonistic ooc interactions at times. And rank has traditionally been a PK achievement past rank 5. With Rank 7/8 bonuses (or remort/ alting) as the end goal. So seeing others attain your goal without the "effort" you put in is frustrating.

Players do what the game rewards, and this game rewards PK. And I mean it REWARDS IT! 5-7 qp/ scalp, no cap on daily qps, and no cap on total qps. When I got serious about ranking I had to PK. That is literally the only way to to it with the typical 1-2hr time windows I had. It is not unheard of to turn in 19 qp of scalps after 30 minutes of play time with nothing but a door and the classic "porting FC surprise" or "hey everyone they hitting Kreeza, lets group." That is me going with the "any allowable means necessary group" (but I suck at PK in general and dont enjoy it. I just had to to get rank.) Getting scalps is easy. I admire those who RP a honorable warrior character, but "any means necessary" is definitely a legitimate strategy that the game 100% rewards.

We often hear that this is a PK friendly and open world. That is not an accurate statement. This is a PK is required world. You can and will be attacked once you hit lvl 30, and if you want to get any bonuses the only viable way is through PK. Think about how hard it is to get QP from RP. RPKudos? Shoot me now. I give them as much as I can, but is anyone even collecting them? Council quests are a pain and super limited. Even those pure RP clans have to jump through a ton of hoops "Lets get every LS player that isnt a statter in TV so I can get a few qp each." It can take hours and hours for 10 or less QP. I think the extensive QP restrictions for non PK related activity comes from the tradition of Rank means someone is good enough at PK to earn it. We should let that go.

To balance this. Remove special PK related bonuses from all but a select few clans. Set a class of clans as PK bonus or remort only clans and set an ALT QP system to get into them and monitor them more closely since their rewards feed directly into cross race PK. Examples I think that fit this are: Wolf Brothers, Warders, all DS remorts, Red and Blue Ajahs, Deathwatch. Morat'raken. Make sure all PK bonuses relate to bookish RP and focus on cross race PK. I'm looking at you Black Talon with your "have reduced movement costs on foot in urban areas (cities/roads) and a cap on max per-room move costs, and can see in the dark" (Finding this out definitely put the sting back into that thrashing we took from yall). I can't think of a single reason to give a group of RP bandit lords not named in the books these abilities for same side PK.

In doing this we have subverted what used to be the goal of PK, we need to replace that. Replace it with more dynamic and active ta/sei/reaver rankings. Basically if someone gets high on those list they are targets for the thing only they can provide in bulk, TPs. If you want PK, horde your TPs and you will get PK from other Elites for TP ranking on the lists. If possible, make TP gains from PK be 2-3 times the amount lost from the player who ripped if the player is listed on ta/sei/reaver. If possible, add a idle time drain to inactive TP totals so someone cant horde TP from PvE and then never log to stay on ta/sei/reaver. No benefits, no bonuses, just bragging rights. For PvE players like me we turn TPs into tokens, and players who dont want to be targets will convert them in to avoid being on the lists.

Down PK qp / scalp rewards, up PvE and RP qp availability. Give PKers a xTP for yQP trade to make up the difference for downed PK qp. With lower PK scalp rewards and non-PK players not giving much in the way of TPs, elite PKers would focus more on elite PKers. Make master rank a measure of dedication to the game and your clan, not of dedication to PK oriented play style.
Harun wrote:
Mon Apr 18, 2022 7:37 pm
a few players had been using VPNs to log on to statters on the opposing side and snipe the narrates.
You Tricky sons of b... *kills every statter ever*

Masaj
Posts: 122
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:06 pm

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by Masaj » Mon May 16, 2022 7:08 pm

I'm going to be honest, I do not understand the perspective that PVE options are not plentiful on this game.

You roll this game back 10-12 years and PK rewards and incentives look about the same with a larger base of players. PVE rewards and options to master via RP/PVE look a whole hell of a lot worse though. You can master characters now where your only "PK" is the avoidance of PK. There have been periods in between where it was easier than now, but it's still pretty easy to get/advance almost any character while largely avoiding PK. Just off the top (some of these things have been adjusted, removed, added, re-adjusted, etc.):

- tps by baerlon, ctfs, jehannah, jafar, iomm
- tps turned into tokens and qps
- cityheads for qps
- baerlon and jehannah for qps
- heralds for qps
- Liaison quests
- Joncask quests
- daily quests
- rares crafted and sold for gold
- rares crafted and sold to weapons buyer for QPs
- gold buying qps for clans
- misc. clan quests
- rotating council quests

And then once you get those characters, surprising nobody, you can keep avoiding PK, but with better bonuses, if that's something you choose to do.

I don't think the problem is a lack of PVE options for advancement -- there's dung-ton of it. PVE options by their very nature are grinds though. You're rewarded with QPs/TPs/Equipment for beating things that are honestly not particularly difficult or dynamic once you figure them out once, without the same risk of gambling your own QPs/TPs/Equipment that's inherent in PK. The trade off is always going to be time and limitations.

What seems to be a sort of confusing subtext is that a lot of people would "play more" if PVE rewards were not only plentiful, but less of a grind -- it doesn't really make a ton of sense to me as a complaint about a 29ish year old game. Coming from the perspective of a PKer who is generally a proponent of constant re-balancing to make sure no one character type is too powerful or impossible to kill, or that barriers of entry are generally sensible, PK rewarding more than PVE is sort of a no-brainer. You're going against other human beings who learn and adapt and get better at killing or better at just avoiding PK; in PVE, you're not exactly up against Dark Souls AI on progressively more powerful characters.

Reyne
Posts: 1418
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:46 am

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by Reyne » Tue May 17, 2022 2:22 pm

I think we understand that PKers think PK is superior to other forms of play, yes. :lol:

It has gotten better for PvErs, which is appreciated.

Masaj
Posts: 122
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:06 pm

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by Masaj » Tue May 17, 2022 5:14 pm

Reyne wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 2:22 pm
I think we understand that PKers think PK is superior to other forms of play, yes. :lol:
Sure, that's a great deduction, but besides the point I'm making, which is more about the nature of the systems. PVE is a pull, PVP is a push. Pulling is on-demand so rewarding it on par with something that is less on-demand and not as perpetually available doesn't make a whole lot of sense on principle.

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