Are players leaving?

... sit down, kick back and relax, and talk about anything that doesn't belong on one of the other forums.
Vampa
Posts: 496
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:45 am

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by Vampa » Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:44 am

I became an immortal in June of 2017.

At the time, there was only one way to advance for the large majority of the mud, and that was PvP.

I had an intent to add means of progression via PvE and RP and I originally thought to err on the side of being generous to generate interest. I've learned, since then, to start at the conservative side and work up. The ultimate goal is for people to be able to advance their characters by playing. I also want to incentivize playing more than one character.

Irrevocably tied to this, for me, was a closing of the gap between earned bonuses and those without; adjustments to master, rank 8, etc. For people to still feel accomplished before getting to those goals.

Another goal has been creating an ability to consistently advance, and not have to be tied to any one means of character progression within the game. To be able to re-gear in multiple ways, to be able to earn qps in multiple ways.

I was completely new to all of this when I started, and I've been learning as I go, so there's been growing pains along the way.

As for toxicity, that's something we're collectively trying to address, much more aggressively than we have in the past. As always, reports of player behavior are the most useful means to address this, and should be mailed to the staff group on the forums.

As for the thoughts everyone has shared on everything, it's appreciated and we're listening, but that doesn't mean that we're going to meet your expectations on our first, or maybe even third try. Your feedback is appreciated.

Foil
Posts: 81
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:10 pm

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by Foil » Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:36 pm

Aureus wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:32 pm
Anor wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:12 am
A few notes from myself as to why I don't have the urge to play anymore.

Player hatred by Imms
This has been seen by me a few ways. Here are a few examples:
  • An imm mailing another imm as a mob, saying that I had been seen doing something. Even though I was sure to never be seen by a player.
  • An imm using imm look to see trinkets being worn such as rings and using that to IC punish.
  • An imm zapping me for multiplaying because I couldn't say the alphabet backwards fast enough while Vaylor had to say it forwards at the same time.
  • An imm using flags on a character to block entry to certain clans that had a mobol quest requirement (Kin) even after approval from the clan.
  • An imm changing the rules and clanning requirements of a clan (Black Talon) after I had been invited on Anor after being kicked out of the HoL.
  • An imm refusing to purge inactive from the clan before a declan vote and using the rules that a not received vote counts for delcan.
  • An imm spawning and moving patrols during a quest to give darkside a significant advantage resulting in lots of deaths, who then bragged on his CoL wanted mortal about how a group of CoL got slaughtered in blight.
  • An imm implementing a jump exit with a known bug to abuse in Amador during a war his mortal was involved in, then using that mortal to advertise the bug to all the CoL enemies in said war.
  • An imm using a mortal in 1 clan, to protect his darkfriend mortal in another clan and backing up that decision with his imm, stopping me from outing his darkfriend using purely in game information.
I think we all know there has been bad behavior before, but there is no tolerance today for the sort of shitty behavior you're describing (aside from the multiplaying bullet, which seems likely to be an honest mistake). An Imm favoring his/her characters, changing rules to disadvantage a particular player, implementing mobol advantages, etc. would be shown the door.
Problem with this is sure maybe some imms are punished, maybe they aren't who is to know. Punishments in general are kept private so with the exception of word of mouth people rarely know when reporting problems has any effect. Same with players for that matter.

I think it falls into the same vein as name and shame.

That being said, I doubt it would really improve anything. Imms catch the majority of the blame for every negative thing that happens in the game, most of the time it's unwarranted and some of the abuse I and a lot of others have given the staff over the years is unfortunate. Sometimes it's well deserved, but most times it's just lashing out.

From my experience if you report imm's or their alts for less than becoming behavior they just get moved into witness protection with a bunch of name changes and go inactive for a bit. When you are using the scales of harm vs. good to decide. It's easy to say someone at the staff level is more of an asset because not many people are willing to do this volunteer work.

Hard to really say what the appropriate course of action is, but I think for some here once the faith is lost in the people who make the decisions it's not something that just comes back so at a certain point it's better to just accept that it probably just isn't the place for you to invest significant time or to become involved on anything more than casual level. Accepting that you can play here casually is fine as well. You don't have to be a advocate of change to enjoy a bit of free time here. I myself, have a better time when I don't really get involved in the political landscape of the game. It's a healthier experience for me when I just treat it for what it is at face value and I don't get mixed up in this or that. Some people enjoy advocating their PoV and don't get particularly upset when their position isn't validated by the player base, or the staff.

A lot of the issues brought up in this thread are quite simple and just require a bit of self introspection. 90% of the issues with the game are due to the player base though and not the staff. How we interreact with the world, each other, and progression is up to us. Staff can't really make the game "fun" for you if it isn't. Outside of changing the linearity of character progression (which I think Vampa wants to do if I read his post correctly) they cannot change the most important and determining factor of the game and that's the player. If you want a richer and more enjoyable world to play in, do something to make it so.

Aureus
Posts: 968
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:13 pm

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by Aureus » Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:54 pm

Foil wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:36 pm
When you are using the scales of harm vs. good to decide. It's easy to say someone at the staff level is more of an asset because not many people are willing to do this volunteer work.
To clarify, this isn't the scale. The scale is: don't cheat or you will get kicked out. I have never once been in or seen an imm conversation where someone's output was weighed vs rule breaking. Imms need to be able to be trusted because 103s and 104s in particular have a lot of abilities to cause chaos if their privileges are misused, and no-one wants to play an unfair game run by cheaters. There are a number of recent examples of this for people who pay attention (e.g., whois Paladyr is an obvious and unfortunate one). You're right this is an area where we don't typically name and shame and that's fair to criticize.

Impartiality will always be questioned since people will disagree with decisions or approaches and people are really passionate about the game - that's part of what the volunteer admins sign up knowing. But that is different to cheating and the various other imm rules. Imms do our best to mitigate our biases, we won't always succeed the first time, but we try to land at the right outcome eventually.

Some imms have been given a second chance over the years, depending on how much time has passed and the sort of misjudgment that occurred, but that is different. People do mature and grow, and we generally don't believe in life sentences. I actually had an imm that was kicked out for rule-breaking many, many (20+) years ago and I'm quite a bit different approaching 40 vs as a teenager.

Elysia
Posts: 7909
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:29 pm

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by Elysia » Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:54 pm

Foil wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:36 pm
From my experience if you report imm's or their alts for less than becoming behavior they just get moved into witness protection with a bunch of name changes and go inactive for a bit. When you are using the scales of harm vs. good to decide. It's easy to say someone at the staff level is more of an asset because not many people are willing to do this volunteer work.
While the renaming characters happened, it didn't happen for the reason you think it did. Said imm was the victim of a friendship gone bad and a false narrative created by another player with a grudge, who later turned out to have been perma banned before for sexual harassment, yet had slipped through the cracks again. Said false narrative lead to harassment by multiple people and said imm had all their alts outed. After the first time, we changed their characters' names. The second time, the immortal in question who was responsible, was fired. This case was reviewed by Flash and he said the following: said imm should've told the first party they butted heads with to "firetruck off" and to let said imm back in. And yes, that is totally my favorite Flash quote.

It's true that sometimes we raise people who are less than perfect, but there is no fool proof recruitment process anywhere in the world. Let alone here, let's be real. We try though. Quality over quantity. We'd rather run a skeleton crew of imms than compromise when it comes to shifty people.

So ironically, the case you felt was evidence of shady imm behavior being glossed over, is in fact shady imm behavior leading to being fired and shady player behavior leading to a ban.

Anor
Posts: 230
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:44 am

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by Anor » Sat Apr 30, 2022 1:15 am

You might think that, but its probably just the story you have been told.

I had direct evidence using 100% in game methods that there was a clanned DF MC. As I started acting on it like the way I outed Brianna, I got messaged from a HoL council member. I was asked who I was investigating, I replied back with the evidence I was working on. That HoL then ordered the CoL to stop hunting darkfriends and that if we (CoL) pursued trying to out any darkfriends we would be treated at enemies.

I asked my clan immortal at the time if that post stands and was told yes.

Afterwards (many months) I was informed that the HoL making the rule, the clan immortal, and the DF I was working on outing were all the same person. Tell me that isn't abuse.

Anor
Posts: 230
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:44 am

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by Anor » Sat Apr 30, 2022 8:13 am

Dolens wrote: /r/conspiracy makes it look so easy. Hm...ok, fine, I'll give it a shot.

"You might think that, but it's probably just the story you have been told."

Wow! What is this dark magic? This raw and untapped power? Could this be it? Could I have found the Prophecized Sentence? The Holy Spirit foretold to DispEl ilLUSION, written in the most holy Ink of DELUSION? Yes...this must be it...the signs all point to it! No longer will I need logic and reason. Damned be they. No longer shall I lay the heavy burden of critical thinking on my brain, for in order to be a free thinker, my brain, too, must be free of this thinking burden. No more shall I ail my mind with this sickness called sanity. Nie wieder!

Praised be our Prophet Nerha! Praised be the Grand Conspirator! The Speaker of Truth! Yes! Praise be onto Him, for He has shown me, nay, us all, the Light! With His untold 'documents', and 'pictures', and 'testimonies', and 'witnesses', all of which containing the most damning of proofs. But ask ye not to see! Nay! Never must ye ask to see! Be forever content with the fact that these are out there for the True Believers. Only the Awakened Ones have access to this holy grail of knowledge, and only the Awakened Ones can read His holy writing and be set free by the Truth.

What is this now? They question the validity of such things? They dare claim these are doctored or tampered with?! Blasphemers all! Have they not done their own research?! Must I do their research for them?! Well, worry not my Cult of Thuthseers, for I have been blessed with a power beyond imagination. Literally beyond imagination. A power so raw and grand, that none shall ever oppose us again:
You might think that, but it's probably just the story you have been told.

There. They shall never question me, nay, us all, ever again. I have won again, Logic Andreason. Flicker

- Memoirs of an Awakened One, Chapter 'Woe is Me, and Forever is Woe Me'.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png

Well done on deleting the replies, however there are my messages to you followed by your post. Ask and you shall receive.
Last edited by Anor on Sat Apr 30, 2022 12:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Elysia
Posts: 7909
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:29 pm

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by Elysia » Sat Apr 30, 2022 8:27 am

Anor wrote:
Sat Apr 30, 2022 1:15 am
You might think that, but its probably just the story you have been told.
Actually, no, that's what several members of Staff at the time observed as things unfolded. From memory, myself, Cerys, Cynthiel and Itesh.

And I'm paraphrasing here, because I don't have exact events in mind after all that time, even though they were investigated twice. But the gist was:

Accusation: They posted xyz!
Truth: Actually, that was Cerys.

Accusation: They did abc!
Truth: Err no? That was Itesh.

And variations of the above. Reports mailed to imms that were later admitted to be false etc.

And even IF there was truth to this imm being bad, that still doesn't give people the right to leak a full list of alts. And least of all it doesn't give people the right to continuously harass said person even after several Staff investigations that yielded nothing and a Flash ruling, plus the best possible transparency without imms leaking details from another clan's forums. Which is also why I'm not looking up exact details for the above examples, because that's another clan's business.

However, if you can please mail me and/or Staff and/or 104s if you're more comfortable with that, the name of all involved, including the name of said df and your investigation method (so I can rule out what to check in game and save some time, hopefully), I can follow up on that, although that will partially depend on me having logs of that time. It's probably woefully too late to reconstruct how that HoL post came about, although I can say that a draft had been posted for Hands to discuss.

margery
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:32 am

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by margery » Sun May 01, 2022 3:52 am

When I logged on at 3pm aust time i was the only ls. I have never seen this before at this time which is typically a great time for pk for am hr or so. Either today is not representative of players or we have a serious problem where out of the entire world we only have 1 player wanting to play ls and 2 ds. I know my playtimes aren't peak, but this suggests to me we have a problem

Draz
Posts: 559
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:14 pm

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by Draz » Sun May 01, 2022 6:51 am

Sorry - at least 4-5 of the more active players have real life stuff.
I'm hoping to be around more but specifically only during my work hours this week.
Arston is working heavily and will play at max 2 hours a day I believe.
Shinji I've noted seems to be more focused on work and family.

A couple DS friends are changing jobs/needing breaks.

Compounding the whole players leaving thing

Sarinda
Posts: 687
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:10 pm
Location: Kalamazoo, MI

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by Sarinda » Sun May 01, 2022 7:19 am

At the end of the day, it's a simple issue of math: The only way to ensure growth is to make intentional and concerted efforts to recruit and then retain more new and/or returning players than we lose from people leaving. I think it would be prudent to plan for anticipated times when numbers might surge based on previous data (e.g., when season 2 of the WoT TV show on Amazon is scheduled to launch, predictable times of the year like around summer/holidays?) and then schedule both player- and Imm-organized events that are exciting and fun.

There are still newer players and some true newbies playing, and I've come across several in the past few months. We should be asking ourselves, what can we personally do to make their lives easier and to make the game more fun for them? Teach them the ropes, give them equipment, answer their questions, and so on. Because players will always eventually leave even if the game is completely healthy and in a good place, newbies are the lifeblood of this community if you want to support the longevity of the game.

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