Are players leaving?

... sit down, kick back and relax, and talk about anything that doesn't belong on one of the other forums.
Elysia
Posts: 7908
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:29 pm

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by Elysia » Tue May 17, 2022 9:49 pm

Imms in general think in risk vs reward. The risk of someone making off with your eq when you die in PK is exponentially higher than it is in PVE. Which is also why we've cracked down on eq returns and organizing pk between friends, because that too nullifies the risk that is usually associated with pk.

Plus a one sided game is a boring game. Ideally, we would have PKers, PVEers, RPers, explorers, socializers, those who tinker to unravel how the game works (like Thuvia) and so on. We do need to cater somewhat to all flavors. One thing I really wish we could get coded was a room count for explorers. Imagine, in score: You have entered 12863 rooms, you have entered 76% of all available rooms. I'd be so down for that.

myzec
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:40 pm

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by myzec » Wed May 18, 2022 2:59 pm

I love that idea Elyisa!

It reminds me of and achievement list. it would also be fun to see people trying to get to 100%. Running into cities, DTing on purpose ect.

Elysia
Posts: 7908
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:29 pm

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by Elysia » Wed May 18, 2022 3:15 pm

myzec wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 2:59 pm
DTing on purpose ect.
:twisted: You followed my train of thought, I see. But yes. :P

Mhaliah
Posts: 873
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:48 am

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by Mhaliah » Wed May 18, 2022 4:59 pm

Elysia wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 9:49 pm
Imms in general think in risk vs reward. The risk of someone making off with your eq when you die in PK is exponentially higher than it is in PVE. Which is also why we've cracked down on eq returns and organizing pk between friends, because that too nullifies the risk that is usually associated with pk.
This seems a little over policing to me.

Organized PK can greatly increase the enjoyment of the game. Things that encourage playing should not be against the rules. If a player only wants PK and has a limited availability of time planning to have people as PK opposition is a good way to make sure the player maximizes their enjoyment. I'm not saying "ill stand here so you can kill me for my scalp" just "lets PK at this time, we will be on x side you all be on y side."

Can you define "eq returns." At what point does it become "eq return" literally looting and handing the items back to the character, looting and putting in a rack/ barrel, looting and dropping, leaving in corpse for them to get? I mean QG have a treaty with the TB which allows TB to hunt our applicants as part of "training", but kits MUST be returned. Is our treaty breaking the rules?

I know a lot has been done to make basic kits easier to get. But for a full set with trinkets (and in PK you really have to have them for the most part) it still takes a significant amount of time. Kit loss will always be a risk, but leaving a character's kit somewhere (with the risk that someone else will take it or other things) for someone who died in PK should definitely be allowed. This allows PKers to keep doing what they enjoy in the time they have to play and get that coveted Round 2 redemption!

This also doesnt take into account how much a PvE character can loose in PK as far as saying PK has more equipment lost risk. PvE players tend to have MORE on them when they die. Just see how much Helgi lost to Razhak in a recent rip. When I die and the kit I have for me and my mob is taken I loose 2 sids, red robe, 2 i&g rings, 2 sungwood braclets, bronze belt, mallet, colossal sword, 2 full abs sets, up to 2 bubbling, up to 2 anti fear vial, up to 5 vial, up to 5 tea, up to 2 cup and typically 300-1000gc.
Masaj wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 7:08 pm
I'm going to be honest, I do not understand the perspective that PVE options are not plentiful on this game.

You roll this game back 10-12 years and PK rewards and incentives look about the same with a larger base of players. PVE rewards and options to master via RP/PVE look a whole hell of a lot worse though. You can master characters now where your only "PK" is the avoidance of PK. There have been periods in between where it was easier than now, but it's still pretty easy to get/advance almost any character while largely avoiding PK. Just off the top (some of these things have been adjusted, removed, added, re-adjusted, etc.):

- tps by baerlon, ctfs, jehannah, jafar, iomm
- tps turned into tokens and qps
- cityheads for qps
- baerlon and jehannah for qps
- heralds for qps
- Liaison quests
- Joncask quests
- daily quests
- rares crafted and sold for gold
- rares crafted and sold to weapons buyer for QPs
- gold buying qps for clans
- misc. clan quests
- rotating council quests
You make good points, there are many PVE options, and it is vastly improved from a decade ago. But compare the PvE you listed to PK including considerations like time to complete, #of players to complete, per day caps, total caps etc. I can solo some of the things you listed now, but as a non master trying to solo most of the TP sources is an exercise in futility. As a non master non stabber you can exclude baerlon, jahennah, jafar, iomm, and city heads. The remaining options are severely restricted with qp caps.

For example lets take Joncask? It takes hours to complete them. You need a group to get the smobs. Assume no one else wants any of the items so they can complete a quest. You have reached the cap of once per quest x four quests. Congratulations you have 40 qp, have reached Rank 3 and are 2.4% of your way to master rank.

This discussion also does not take into account qp lost from PK rips. That is, since this is a PK required game, a player who is not proficient at PK will die and will loose clan trinkets. Thankfully I die far less often right now, but when I first hit rank 5 way back in the day, loosing 8qp per rip was a big hit.

PK time to complete is variable and a PKer with limited time can go for quick finish options. As to your point that PK is a push, yes you must have at least 2 players for PK, but the game facilitates PKers finding each other and solo PK is viable for any setup (except maybe that non master abs bash trolloc against a Red Ajah in full dodge Run Away!!! lol). There are no per day caps for qp from PK. There are no total caps for qp from PK. You can get that 40 qp in an hour of play time.

Just to be clear I dont think a cap on QP from PK is at all reasonable, that is just to illustrate how much more the game rewards PK vs other play styles.

Elysia
Posts: 7908
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:29 pm

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by Elysia » Wed May 18, 2022 5:48 pm

Mhaliah wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 4:59 pm

Organized PK can greatly increase the enjoyment of the game. Things that encourage playing should not be against the rules. If a player only wants PK and has a limited availability of time planning to have people as PK opposition is a good way to make sure the player maximizes their enjoyment. I'm not saying "ill stand here so you can kill me for my scalp" just "lets PK at this time, we will be on x side you all be on y side."

Can you define "eq returns." At what point does it become "eq return" literally looting and handing the items back to the character, looting and putting in a rack/ barrel, looting and dropping, leaving in corpse for them to get? I mean QG have a treaty with the TB which allows TB to hunt our applicants as part of "training", but kits MUST be returned. Is our treaty breaking the rules?
Here's the original post and subsequent discussion:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14836

viewtopic.php?f=74&t=14838&p=128009&hil ... rn#p128009

The problem was people setting up crossrace pk using outside means of communication, quietly whacking eachothers' brains in, scalping, and then hiding the eq somewhere and messaging the player "stuff is hidden there". Rinse, repeat, rank. That's not pk, that's sparring for qps. And that is not fair compared to every other player out there. Not to mention the quiet on the downlow stuff makes it seem like there's nothing going on, and one interested in pk. In reality people are just trying to min max risk vs reward. One of the core tenets of the game is that you can be looted. That's negated when you do the nudge-nudge-wink-wink with a friend thing and spar eachother to master/ beyond.

Prykor
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2022 8:56 pm

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by Prykor » Wed May 18, 2022 8:07 pm

Masaj wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 7:08 pm
I'm going to be honest, I do not understand the perspective that PVE options are not plentiful on this game.
I believe it's more about what can be done solo, and in what sort of time frame. A list of activities available for a large group of folks isn't very helpful when you are by yourself and only have a couple solid hours to dedicate for a play session.

A rogue can stab or projectile certain smobs, and a FC can weave certain smobs, and wars can chuck javelins or whip out the binnol (to a limited extent, master damage/ob helps a lot).
Alternatively, spending 200g to reprac to a dedicated smob prac set up and then pay again to change back -- assuming they have access to all of the projectiles or javelins needed, and plan to smob enough to cover all of those costs.
Luggard Market (and the KMG who hopefully stock the living crap out of it) and crafting help with this, but that's yet one more time sink needed to move to the starting line for smobbing.

A lot of this gets challenging as no-hides, no-throw, and anti-channel measures are in place with many smobs.
When smobbing gets too easy for certain set ups then additional anti-measures are added in, much to the dismay of the folks who took the time to theorycraft the build, from the prac set up, to farm the equipment (and theorycrafting qty of throwing weapons needed to stockpile), and practice the play style.
That can take quite the investment, and it is even recommended to have a dedicated alt for that -- which actively hurts RP for in-character / character separation principles.

isabel
Posts: 1713
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:19 am

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by isabel » Thu May 19, 2022 6:25 am

Elysia wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 5:48 pm
Mhaliah wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 4:59 pm

Organized PK can greatly increase the enjoyment of the game. Things that encourage playing should not be against the rules. If a player only wants PK and has a limited availability of time planning to have people as PK opposition is a good way to make sure the player maximizes their enjoyment. I'm not saying "ill stand here so you can kill me for my scalp" just "lets PK at this time, we will be on x side you all be on y side."

Can you define "eq returns." At what point does it become "eq return" literally looting and handing the items back to the character, looting and putting in a rack/ barrel, looting and dropping, leaving in corpse for them to get? I mean QG have a treaty with the TB which allows TB to hunt our applicants as part of "training", but kits MUST be returned. Is our treaty breaking the rules?
Here's the original post and subsequent discussion:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14836

viewtopic.php?f=74&t=14838&p=128009&hil ... rn#p128009

The problem was people setting up crossrace pk using outside means of communication, quietly whacking eachothers' brains in, scalping, and then hiding the eq somewhere and messaging the player "stuff is hidden there". Rinse, repeat, rank. That's not pk, that's sparring for qps. And that is not fair compared to every other player out there. Not to mention the quiet on the downlow stuff makes it seem like there's nothing going on, and one interested in pk. In reality people are just trying to min max risk vs reward. One of the core tenets of the game is that you can be looted. That's negated when you do the nudge-nudge-wink-wink with a friend thing and spar eachother to master/ beyond.
It would be NICE if you were wandering around the mud and picked up fellow adventurers who happened to be there, and then serendipitiously you all decided to go on an adventure together and you found some trails that led to exciting caverns with gem-laden bandits who wielded prized weapons, and you all organically worked together to take him or her down.

It would also be NICE if you were patrolling your city and ran into enemies and then allies showed up and there was just enough skill level and numbers on either side to make it an exciting back and forth fight that was glorious and memorable whether you won or lost.

I don't know if "organising" pk the way you're describing it is the same as sparring, but having invested years of my life trying to "find pk", being yelled at by people for not narrating (after the 5th time of 4-5 people jumping in with a thin opposite side who list), being yelled at by people for said groups jumping in because I did narrate, being completely fed up with 4-5 people jumping in - chasing you back in - wait 20 mins - rinse repeat until it's pointless --->

I will say that most pkers and smobbers and everyone would love to in the long run have organic adventures on this game, realistically it's not possible - despite a huge time sink - it's not because anyone wants to cheat their way to easy qps, and its' kind of sad if imms think that is what happens but even if it did, like what is the difference between someone doing that and afk xping? They get some boring master char and then quit the game because they could never actually get into a more challenging level of play? So waht? How does it justify making it a massive time sink for everyone else?

I never understood that.

Elysia
Posts: 7908
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:29 pm

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by Elysia » Thu May 19, 2022 9:49 am

isabel wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 6:25 am
I will say that most pkers and smobbers and everyone would love to in the long run have organic adventures on this game, realistically it's not possible - despite a huge time sink - it's not because anyone wants to cheat their way to easy qps, and its' kind of sad if imms think that is what happens but even if it did, like what is the difference between someone doing that and afk xping? They get some boring master char and then quit the game because they could never actually get into a more challenging level of play? So waht? How does it justify making it a massive time sink for everyone else?

I never understood that.
I'm sorry Isabel, but multiple imms literally saw this happen. People known to be OOC friends making a beeline to a certain area to fight eachother in complete silence, hiding the gear when one dies, turning in the scalp, retrieving the gear and off they went again. That day or the next day. This is not paranoia, this is what was literally observed.

So, once observed, what are the options? Do nothing and let those players spar eachother to master and/or remort? Other players notice these things. That doesn't help with people's sense of equality. If THEY cheat, why shouldn't I? And before you know it, you have people quietly pking on the downlow, leaving newer players or people with less crossrace contacts in the dust. That's not fair play. Not to mention it would affect the atmosphere of the game,which mind, was touched upon multiple times in this thread.

That leaves the other option: ban eq returns, but allow leaving of eq at the corpse. Because that happens. A dodger won't want to carry a beat up abs set. Someone killing someone in lithe eq won't want that. Someone killing an obvious newbie may want to not take their burnished. And you can still do that. You just don't get to carry stuff off and return it to an easy to retrieve place. That's not the big deal you're making this out to be.

myzec
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:40 pm

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by myzec » Thu May 19, 2022 12:48 pm

It’s like many other things in the game… difficult to police without sucking all the fun out of the game. I personally don’t mind people deciding to engage in 1v1 battles and not narrating and then leaving the gear. I have done that a ton with people over the years and quite often good gear was left behind on both sides (these were rarely pre-arranged and in all cases the victor was not agreed). I don’t ever recall gear return being agreed but often it was a sign of respect and would happen more often than not. What I don’t like is friends agreeing to feed each other qps. I personally did it once almost 2 years ago where a friend let me kill his alt once. I handed in the scalp and felt gross about it. Have never done it again. My personal view is remove the rules and when you see it report it. If the Imms see foul play let them hand out punishment. May be better to move toward a principle base rule system where if it is not in the spirit of the game it is punished. I would also suggest making public all the punishments from discord bans to character zaps. You don’t need to include the names but rather the infringement and the punishment. It helps us see where the lines are.

Elysia
Posts: 7908
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:29 pm

Re: Are players leaving?

Post by Elysia » Thu May 19, 2022 1:31 pm

myzec wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 12:48 pm
I would also suggest making public all the punishments from discord bans to character zaps. You don’t need to include the names but rather the infringement and the punishment. It helps us see where the lines are.
We discussed that some time ago, but the overall sentiment was a hard no. It's just even more admin. Also, it's a step in another window that can get forgotten easily. E.g. like declanning someone and forgetting to remove forum access. Of flagging someone Sitter and adding them to the Sitter group so they can actually post on Sitter forums. That stuff just gets forgotten, because we record stuff ingame and not on forums.

Post Reply