Are players leaving?

[byrg]

So information which was not for public consumption and goes against the spirit of the game in which it was created was automatically reloaded without understanding the noted ramifications? Is there governance applied for sensitive information? Admins assume responsibility of the data they are administrating and thus by default are responsible, hence why its a very cautious topic. Providing a historical accounting as to the uploading and deletion of sensitive data only reinforces a lack of control around the data, which was determined as sensitive and raised as a concern. It is fine to provide public information but providing sensitive information and hiding behind a behind a process for public information is irresponsible. I hope we understand that and it is the crux of the issue. It was not public domain data and should not have been shared nor reshared. And there should have been a review. Additionally it was noted that folks were asking it to be taken down and it was not adhered.

Also, is it standard process to post IP addresses?

This whole response is quite concerning.

... welcome to the internet? Someone who knew the bonuses decided to make them public. The page in which they were made public still exists. Someone then posted that on a wiki. Neither of those are places which wotmud staff have any control. Once the info is out there, its out there and the damage is done, imo. As to the IP addresses... the poster accepted their IP being public the second they posted info on the wiki, so censoring it here seems about as futile as trying to hide the wolfbro bonuses that are freely available on google.

Edit: an amusing side note, one of the 2 ips that deleted the wolfbro page on the wiki also added a "grangh" page in 2020

[Raspen]

LOL at the Grangh.

[byrg]

Also while its a topic, on the bonus thing, I'm personally of the opinion that the bonuses for all the clans should be public knowledge - as we've seen... all hiding them does is make people try twice as hard to find them, and give people reasons to fight about dung, cause people to assume things about them that often aren't true or are exaggerated. Keep clanning info for secret clans secret if you wish, keep bases secret if you wish, etc - do other things to keep the mystery, but the bonuses, imo, *should* be public info... just leaves way less opportunity for misunderstandings and arguments and people screaming about things that may or may not even be true.

[Taziar]

The other (happened before the first point) was the posting of all WB bonuses on the Wiki but not posting all other secret clans at the same time. Definitely felt that was out of line. If you are going to do the freedom of information no probs, just put every clan out there. I really would like to know some secrets of BTs, Kin, or some of the juicer dark gifts out there but alas its not for my eyes. And there was also something in there I hadn't realized and really wished I had the opportunity to find out for myself... From my perspective, it seemed you had an axe to grind and again for no reason I was aware of and more importantly how did you get the information? It was escalated to immortals and noted it was not appropriate to post clan information. Again, from my point, I believe this skewed your view of the staff and wb clan members.

You accused me of posting the wolfbrother information. I did not...
You accuse me of violating my Fandom Admin responsibilities and you don't even know what they are...
I do not have the "secret" information of any clan, nor have I posted any....
I didn't have the information, it was posted years before I join the wiki and 6+ years before someone tried to delete it...
This entire experience did color my view of wb clan members due to their poor treatment of me...
This did not skew my view of staff because staff was never involved in any of this... at any time...

Your entire post above is fiction. And it is exactly for false narratives like this that I am leaving this community.

[Kryyg]

Also while its a topic, on the bonus thing, I'm personally of the opinion that the bonuses for all the clans should be public knowledge - as we've seen... all hiding them does is make people try twice as hard to find them, and give people reasons to fight about dung, cause people to assume things about them that often aren't true or are exaggerated. Keep clanning info for secret clans secret if you wish, keep bases secret if you wish, etc - do other things to keep the mystery, but the bonuses, imo, *should* be public info... just leaves way less opportunity for misunderstandings and arguments and people screaming about things that may or may not even be true.

Also, if said bonuses have even the slightest benefit in PvP or can be even remotely used in PvP then it needs to be public knowledge. It's a joke we are trying and arguing for removing the disparity in masters and non masters then have BT running around with stab bonuses. Everyone should be informed of what they are up against.

[Ominas]

So information which was not for public consumption and goes against the spirit of the game in which it was created was automatically reloaded without understanding the noted ramifications? Is there governance applied for sensitive information? Admins assume responsibility of the data they are administrating and thus by default are responsible, hence why its a very cautious topic. Providing a historical accounting as to the uploading and deletion of sensitive data only reinforces a lack of control around the data, which was determined as sensitive and raised as a concern. It is fine to provide public information but providing sensitive information and hiding behind a behind a process for public information is irresponsible. I hope we understand that and it is the crux of the issue. It was not public domain data and should not have been shared nor reshared. And there should have been a review. Additionally it was noted that folks were asking it to be taken down and it was not adhered.

Also, is it standard process to post IP addresses?

This whole response is quite concerning.

Providing time stamps and information on something that was brought up is not concerning. You’re trying to create a narrative. The narrative is nonsense. All of the information such as IP are apparently public. Wolfbro bonuses are public knowledge. Just as every other clan with bonuses is public knowledge. As they should be. Don’t allow bias to stand in the way of reason.

I think what’s more interesting is that in an earlier post you labeled bandwagoning, aggression towards other players, and specific examples of things such as using the rl names of some of our members, as harassment. Which is true. The punishments you listed that should have taken place are also fair and correct.

Yet when Taziar faced aggressive attacks on his character, rl and in game and other forms of harassment, he was asking for it? I don’t know how else to take your posts other than that way. He brought it on himself because he did something that you’ve labeled as not ok basically.

Now I understand you next said to report them. Good on you. But as you yourself noticed, in a way, wouldn’t matter if he did.

You are all hypocrites man. Make no mistake. I don’t care what “click” you’re involved with. You point your fingers at one another but you’re no different from one another. Not really. Now understand this isn’t necessarily aimed at you, Raspen, I’m talking to a wider audience. All of them have heard from me and been told this before, but still. It’s worth saying again.

Grow up. Build bridges not walls.

I’ve made my own share of mistakes. Regardless I hope one day people start bridging those gaps. If you’re taking anything related to this game personally, even these posts, you got more to worry about than the damn game.

Anyway, I don’t really care for all the changes that have been made. I think that what’s being done is often not well thought out and that there are too many iterations. I understand that some things can’t be fully tested until it’s live but there’s a cost to such things. I don’t like that zones are being messed with. I think that there is bias among staff and, specifically regarding pk, the staff making these changes are not always qualified to do so. I don’t mean that as an insult. I think the balance of weapons and eq hasn’t really been a balance. But on that, I am not really qualified to speak. So I won’t. That’s a tough nut to crack. I think it’s just one of those things that will take time to figure out.

I personally love to see changes. I think some of what’s been done is amazing. Statting. Prerolled. Xp scalps. Smobber rewards. I’ve heard there’s been changes to quests. On and on. I applaud the staff working on these things.

I think this is where Imm attention should mostly lie. Not sweeping changes. But making the world as interactive and “real” as possible. Some of the best times I’ve ever had on the game were with siro, pal, noodle, veh, interacting with the players. Those are special memories for me personally. But that’s just an opinion. To each their own.

The toxicity is a problem but it just makes me apathetic more than anything. I suppose because I genuinely do care about the game and the community. So it’s sad to see it where it is, with it being as small as it is. I don’t get my feelings wrapped up in what others think of me personally. But I understand why others do.

So that’s part of why I haven’t been around and don’t really intend to be. Hope everyone’s well.

[jafra]

The other (happened before the first point) was the posting of all WB bonuses on the Wiki but not posting all other secret clans at the same time. Definitely felt that was out of line. If you are going to do the freedom of information no probs, just put every clan out there. I really would like to know some secrets of BTs, Kin, or some of the juicer dark gifts out there but alas its not for my eyes. And there was also something in there I hadn't realized and really wished I had the opportunity to find out for myself... From my perspective, it seemed you had an axe to grind and again for no reason I was aware of and more importantly how did you get the information? It was escalated to immortals and noted it was not appropriate to post clan information. Again, from my point, I believe this skewed your view of the staff and wb clan members.

Please let me clear the record.

In 2002 the player of Paikah posted a website with the fore mentioned bonus for the wolfbrother clan. This website went public at some point after that, I do not know when. This website comes up as the second result of the google search: wolfbrother wotmud

On April 29th, 2013 Russ3Z (Thuvia) created the wolfbrother page on the wiki. That page was just a template, with no information... just like all the other page templates he started.

On May 29th, 2014 a contributor added the bonus information to the page. This contributor did so from the information released from the webpage Paikah posted. At this point that website was common information. That contributor's IP address is: (they posted without logging into an account)

From December of 2014 until July 2016 there were five edits of the wolfbrother page, all minor edits (formatting, etc...)

In March of 2016 the account Medakan was created and it was the first time I had ever used the wiki. Russ3Z started me on my way to becoming the second largest contributor on record. He eventually gave me admin responsibilities a few years later.

On November 18th, 2020 a user IP: Deleted the wolfbrother page. This user did not leave a note in the edit notes of why they deleted the page. This user did so not logged into a fandom account. This not compliant with wiki standards.

Three days later on the 21st I noticed the page had been deleted. I looked for notes, and or, user information to as why it was deleted. There was no information. As the sole active admin of the wiki I reverted the edit and restored the page. This is consistent with Fandom admin criteria and with the instructions handed down to me by Russ3Z. Admin of the Wiki are there to protect content and help the community contribute.

Then on the 25th, another user, not logged into an account and leaving no notes deleted the page again. IP:

The next day I reverted that edit and then proceeded to "protect" the page with my admin authority to protect the content from being deleted again. I added the commonly known website where the content came from as source for the content validating it.

NOW... some other information. The wiki is contributor run. It has no affiliation with the staff, nor is it controlled by anyone other than the contributors that... contribute. At the time, I was commonly know as the only active admin of the wiki. At no time was I approach by staff to discuss the page. At no time was I ever told by staff to delete the content. INSTEAD, I was attacked by a half a dozen players, sent pissed off DMs, and abused on Discord. I attempted to explain to the aggressive participants what was going on and it degenerated quickly.

Then I was messaged by a wiki contributor, LyrenT who told me there were a lot of people freaking out over the wolfbrother page. I explained to her what happened; multiple times the page was deleted by (non)-account users without any documentation why. She agreed that this was unacceptable and understood my position. We discussed what to do about it. I granted, under my authority, to allow the page to be edited only by contributors. She made an edit to the page that day removing the bonus content.

On January 27th 2021 Medakan (me) added content to the wolfbrother page that is directly from the help file in game.


All of this is documented on the wiki, for anyone to see, in the history section of the wolfbrother page.

Taziar, thank you for contributing large amounts of your time and energy to create and maintain so much of the wiki content. The mud would be much worse off without this information, it's one of the biggest improvements I noticed upon returning to the game. Now I know you didn't even post the content about the Wolfbrothers clan, but regardless, you would be well within your rights to post whatever content you want and administer it however you see fit. I see no issues with what you've done, nor do I think you violated the spirit of the game. Byrg had a really good response about this .

Switching topics: VPN usage; I think it's almost to be expected this day and age for any variety of reasons, security and anonymity being at the forefront. It seems like a few people have jumped on the bandwagon and automatically assumed cheating. Now I don't even really know this player, but I don't think it's fair to make that conclusion.

Regarding the state of the game, yeah obviously players are leaving. Probably a slew of us started playing with the TV show hype and then quickly realized the game still has many problems and may not be worth our time. I'd also consider myself more of a casual gamer and a lot of the fun goals seem unattainable for me with the progression system. In the end I'm not sure I'm willing to commit that sort of time and effort to WotMud. May be back eventually, sitting out for now.

[Foil]

Great post Ominas. I enjoyed playing with you around the Christmas break. Hope all is well for you and the game will miss your presence.

The guy really hit the nail on the head. It's a game, it's okay to have different views regarding the game. People can still get along and enjoy this community together. All of the BS going on really isn't necessary and honestly just hurts the overall experience for you, those you have the problem with, and innocent bystanders who are just trying to spend an hour or two decompressing from RL.

[Callesa]

I've been on a break since last month or two in spite of having really wanted to keep playing actively, slowly work towards R8 and to keep doing what I like the best: smaller group activities, RP, smobbing, crafting, helping newbies and less experienced players (so that they get addicted too and keep the mud alive -muhahahaha-). The break is what I was told to do after a few complaints, and in not too nice words. Yes, I think the wotmud has a few problems, that are driving people away.

Some might be globally less important but they still matter. The FCs being just downed and downed, that is extremely unpleasant, and we still jut get complained about. And FCs are one of the main parts of the WoT books, one of the main things that are special about WoT, and supposedly strong. In PvE, it is no longer true and that is an issue. It is simply a problem, when people complaining about some stuff about their favourite class and about difficulty progressing their favourite chars just get told "make a trolloc hunter and learn to PK". You shouldn't treat the main attractive thing about this whole world as some undesirable trash and the players as just idiots, who should play something totally different instead. And a part of the issue is losing players of Aes Sedai, or making them switch to other alts (oriented on individual success only). These players have proven dedication, and also capability and willingness to play the mud in a way that benefits the community, to lead group activities of various kinds. If all people get for the investment are more and more changes damaging the character, no wonder we leave.

(And I agree with the sentiment of another player regarding the very bad timing of changes. I master, postures get changed right before that. I get a warder, only to find out the bond was severely downed a month before that. I come back, eager to play Heralds for slow progress to R8, only to find out they are impossible to do. And the list goes on. It is just a badluck, but it discourages).

Another issue is exactly the relative lack of shorter activities that would attract people (but of course we would get stuck and play for longer, when possible. But many of us simply cannot sign up for something sure to take 4 hours and end in a slaughter anyways. Heralds are totally destroyed now). Even more important are activities for smaller groups. Which leads to my main point:

LS is struggling a lot and it affects the whole mud. For a large part of the day (basically the whole day in my time zone, except for the time from 11 pm till 4 am), it is extremely discouraging to play LS. And LS is the heart of the mud, which is "balanced" with a bigger LS on mind compared to smaller DS and SS, it is supposed to be the nurturing side for the less experienced players, and it is supposed to be the side with the most varied activities. But these days, the "experienced players only, you'll be hunted" warning should be on the normal LS, not really on DS/SS/MC.

It is not fun to play on a non existent LS, it is stressful, and "just play SS/DS instead" advice is not a solution. Typically, I see a wholist of like 10-15 LS, half of which are statters (possibly bots), half the rest are Seanchan and/or Darkfriends and/or MC. It is suddenly impossible to make a group sufficient for pretty much anything, and the 2 or 3 real LSers left (very often non pkers, as pkers are on their DS/SS/DF/MC alts) are the only pray for the whole DS and SS, who have also gotten far too much mobility these days (support of SS well inside the continent, portal stones for non channies, graymen comfortably visiting LS, Ways with very little risk compared to some of the previous versions etc). Getting anything done on the LS chars gets extremely risky and the reward/risk ratio is not great.

It is hard to play LS for a majority of the day, it is hard to do solo stuff (unless you're a very good stab smobber) and it is twice (or three times) as hard on the totally nerfed FCs, it is hard to do group stuff even if you get a small group (majority of the fun stuff is for large groups), and so on.

LS needs help. As others have said: Let people slowly grind for R8 (btw why was Erulisse's success seen as so much of a problem that the Heralds were totally destroyed for everyone as the response? She earned her R8 with lots of time and effort, that's great, not bad), don't discourage them from playing their masters (so, let stuff give rewards after 999qps or mastering), it is good for the clans and the whole LS. Ok, there is no will to add LS remorts or anything like that for the more ambitious players, to keep LS (the parts oriented on the whole side, not the highly individual parts of it) attractive, so at least don't actively discourage people from playing their advanced LS clanned chars. Make it a little bit easier to form groups and do smaller but still very fun stuff, give LS back the narrates, make the SS/DS a bit less mobile again, stop Andor from being the new Blight (there is a lot of room between "totally safe, which is not desirable" and "the main pk zone").

LS is supposed to keep especially the newer players playing. It is so sad to nurture the newbies, but then see them lose interest at the "intermediate level" exactly because they struggle to do stuff on LS.

[achillies]

I am still playing, not as much as I used to, but really the only reason why I am is because I started a new character that I want to master. If I didn't start this new char - a completely new class and clan for me, then I would have quit. Once I am over this character then, I think it is time for a long/forever break.

I will start by saying that I love the memories that I have of this game and for this I am thankful to the staff who give up their time for it to run and to the community that plays it. I love the Pk and I love catching old friends online.

In terms of why I have less desire to play these days and can see my self stopping soon, it is because I feel as though I have no reason to play Achillies anymore or Badd and dont enjoy DS or SS. Once I master my new char and therefore all three classes, I assume will feel the same way about the new char.

Whilst some/many/all of you may disagree the key reasons why I have no desire to play these much loved characters of mine is that there is nothing for me to achieve on them that I find valuable.

I started to make a run on both of them to rank 8 (oh how I wish I took scalps for all those years after mastering) as I was excited by the rank 8 zone sense. With this removed, I dont see rank 8 as valuable for me (I understand that others may find r8 valuable) - for me it is not worth the effort.

With the limited play time available to me, if I cant progress these chars to something that I find worthwhile, then why play them? I also dont find Achillies or Badd fun to play at all anymore - I am quite annoyed that they have been nerfed, nerfing what I had worked for (in terms of postures). The removal of zerk attack makes Achillies feel 20% as powerful as he was, reduction in master stab (despite it being an error in a calc) is also frustrating on Badd. You cant take things away from characters that they have had for years and expect them to still enjoy the character as much as they did when they had the thing that was taken away. I am actually resentful every time I log onto Achillies - so I just dont do it?

A few players that have recently quit, when I asked why, they articulate this exact reason - my main was downed, r8 changes, r7 changes etc. Taking things away that people have sacrificed time to achieve is never a good thing in my opinion, it just creates negative feelings (unless you are the person/a person who was involved in the decision making process and has some agency).

In terms of recent changes - I love the xp scalps, ctf, reduced circle time, starter kit after death etc that make the game easier and quicker to achieve outcomes. I also love the imm communication and time taken to explain when asked questions - even if i disagree with the logic presented, I am ok with this as I can have a respectful dialogue around my disagreement, feel heard and then move on. Outside of one interaction, all my interactions with the imms have been positive - which is very different to experiences I had many years ago.

I very much dislike the constant zone changes and constant changing of stats on weaps eq etc. These changes make my gaming time more difficult. Too many of them and my desire to log on (and get lost, die due to not knowing changes, have to find new weaps because my existing ones nerfed) is significantly reduced.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, the above is mine. You don't have to agree with my reasons and I know many of you dont, but they are what they are