a dark oak javelin

... sit down, kick back and relax, and talk about anything that doesn't belong on one of the other forums.
tekela
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:29 pm

Re: a dark oak javelin

Post by tekela » Wed Mar 23, 2022 6:06 pm

arston wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 5:33 pm
all the advantage of having a "higher ob javelin" goes away when you can only prac it 91% though
No, because practicing a similar stab build with red stone daggers rather than pine javelins doesn't suddenly let you practice 99% short blades to get close to off-setting the inherent OB difference in the weapons. Advantage is a relative term, but even with that considered, 190+ ob (which I pull with 91% pracs and level 6 ride on my pine jav user in dodge) is pretty strong no matter what.

Also, let's just throw this out there: if you're practicing 91% attack on any stabby set up, you have fucked up.

Pyrda
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:56 am

Re: a dark oak javelin

Post by Pyrda » Thu Mar 24, 2022 7:38 am

Taziar wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 12:39 pm
Again, the only class you guys are promoting javelins with are your "basic" stabby hunters...
Alright then lets look at potential other builds which would suit a pine jav. I think the reason why we are drawn to stab is because any weapon that has stab attached to it is really inviting to pursue that pathway. It makes sense, it's a large instant damage nuke that has real instantaneous benefits in combat.

For the purpose of this I will just use the prerolled option, 18 12 12 19 19 hunter.

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Mahog Bash/Pine Jav (for attack round bonus damage and for defense breaking during offensive situation)
  • 95 spears
    95 bash
    91 charge
    93 javelins
    91 shield parry
    91 dodge
    85 attack
    58 search
    90 track (3 lines of mounted auto-track with lvl 6 ride)
    90 notice
    84 survival (level 6)
    84 ride (level 6)
Seems reasonable, you could throw the track down to just 2 lines and pick up another practice in search and attack if that is preferable.

Alternatively if you wanted to really push the limitations you could have it look more like this.
  • 94 spears
    94 bash
    88 kick
    91 charge
    91 javelins
    91 dodge
    73 attack
    30 search
    78 track
    90 notice
    84 ride (lvl 6)
    84 survival (lvl 6)
Benefits as I see them for this build.
  • Potential for ((4d5+2d4+rank) X bash multiplier) X ≤ 4 damage on bashed hits vs the ((5d7+2d4+rank) X bash multiplier) X 2 with the spear alone.

    A bonus 19ob on the javelin over the spear to assist in breaking down dodge defense/channeler defense during group pk or ripping through the new combo defense statistics.
Obviously, you'll need to be making some sacrifices to attain those bonuses, like a slight overall loss in ob due to 95/91 weapon practices, and the 9%? reduced charge damage (but frankly current charge damage isn't amazing yet still remains a great deterrent to stabber types).

(This builds practices work even better on a warrior at the cost of autotrack but gaining 5 more ob with that 93ob javelin.)

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Pine Jav/Halberd Abs Stab (for basic abs pk ability and stab for both smobbing and if you manage to sneak up on someone unawares)

  • 95 polearms
    95 bash
    91 javelins
    98 hide
    88 sneak
    47 attack
    91 backstab
    78 search
    78 track
    90 notice
    84 ride (level 6)
    84 survival (level 6)


Would alternatively throw attack away in favour of 99hide/91sneak/92backstab, gives a little extra stab landing chance though 50% is plenty if you have a pet/master mob to sit for agro pulses or a reasonable tick timer.

Benefits.
  • Utilitarian usage, given the residuals in javelins from the polearm practices you can have reasonable stab practices.

    Ease of access, the halberd is a reasonable abs weapon choice if only for the fact it currently comes as part of the reset kit given to players in the Co* now. No need to hunt for a good long blade, currently popping out of the sky with the optimal non rare abs polearm in your hands.

    No ones going to suspect the idiot abs hunter to turn around and stab you in the back! (j/k j/k)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Animosity aside, I'm still a little lost as to what the expectation of this class is for you. I can sit here and theory craft lots of dumb builds for weapons that have varying degrees of effectiveness based primarily on the users skill level and adaptability. There are clearly viable options for javelins to slot into builds to enhance them, or if you want to play them as a primary they have that function (hint - its high ob/low defense/decent stab damage build).

@Arston - If I came across as pretty snarky, it was because the argument you proposed felt a lot like a strawman, so I treated it as such. If not I apologize and am happy to discuss viability of practices for stuff at any time.

Pyrda
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:56 am

Re: a dark oak javelin

Post by Pyrda » Thu Mar 24, 2022 7:47 am

arston wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 5:33 pm
tekela wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 1:17 pm


"It pairs well with kick" is a comment on the high OB potential (kick is dependent on your OB and your opponents DB). It doesn't mean that you can do all of those things at the same time with 99 pracs in everything on a preroll or without any significant trade-offs.
arston wrote:
Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:45 pm

So lets cut back on everything, only 95% in stab skills, drop survival down to 1 and commit to not being in extended pk or quaffing every 3 minutes, drop to 2 ranks of track (is that even enough for autotrack? i dont play hunters) its already low search, already no pick, already only 91 dodge/shield parry so cant do a dodge setup, EVEN THEN it takes 207 pracs, so you still need to cut out 6 more pracs somewhere for a lvl 51 character. And thats not to excel in ANYTHING, thats to get terrible defense, worse stab than any dagger, worse melee than any foil- no disarm, and you get to throw maybe 2 times in any pk before you run out of javelins, i dont know enough about kick to know if 91% in combo and javelin is any use or not.
I broke it down WITH the significant trade offs, assuming that you drop stab skills that gets down to

94 hide/sneak/backstab
91 dodge/shield parry/kick/javelins/attack
2 lines track
lvl 1 survival
50% search

i suppose TECHNICALLY, thats playable? for ONE class, if you sacrifice literally everything else then you can get something subpar in a handful of things. all the advantage of having a "higher ob javelin" goes away when you can only prac it 91% though, so not seeing anything other than suuuuper niche case where this setup could even be useful at all.
If you wanted to include kick into a build that's the standard jav stab option, this is how I would do it.

18 12 12 19 19 hunter (yes ofc it's a hunter class!)

91 javelins
88 kick
85 parry
88 dodge
99 hide
91 sneak
91 backstab
57 attack
30 search
78 track
90 notice
84 ride (level 6)
84 survival (level 6)

I like the level 6 ride/74+ track too much, autotrack is a massive bonus and seems silly not to take some advantage of it for the 2 lines those thresholds give you. Really tight and probably non viable in dodge with the prerolled option.

tekela
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:29 pm

Re: a dark oak javelin

Post by tekela » Thu Mar 24, 2022 9:09 am

tl;dr

Drybones
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:36 pm

Re: a dark oak javelin

Post by Drybones » Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:00 pm

Also, doing those setups on a warrior offer some pretty strong prac advantages. Combing pine javs with spears/lances/axes whatever give some pretty flexible setups for abs/combo/dodge warriors.

Detritus
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:22 am

Re: a dark oak javelin

Post by Detritus » Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:06 pm

Kick is also inherently bad with attack as kick lag opportunity cost also commonly includes attack round.

A basic stabby hunter example, short blades or javs makes no difference.

You are using:
<used as light> a brass storm lantern
<worn on finger> a gold ring
<worn on finger> a gold ring
<worn on head> a camouflaged hood
<worn around neck> a shimmering pendant of obsidian
<worn around neck> a shimmering pendant of obsidian
<worn on body> a bearskin tunic
<worn about body> a half-cape of silk-lined leather
<slung on back> a backpack
<worn on arms> a set of cloth sleeves
<worn on hands> a pair of dark gloves
<worn around wrist> a silver Kandori wristcuff
<worn around wrist> a silver Kandori wristcuff
<worn as shield> a silver etched shield
<wielded> a curved clear dagger
<worn about waist> a belt with a buckle of cuendillar
<worn on legs> a pair of earthen colored breeches
<worn on feet> a black pair of silver-tooled boots

* HP:Healthy MV:Winded > look in pack
backpack (used) :
a glass of apple cider
[3] a cup of thready brown tea
a cup of thick syrup
[4] a thin vial of yellow fluid
a bubbling draught
[2] a stable ticket
a leather water flask
[3] a smooth metallic disc

Your height is 5 feet, 6 inches, and you weigh 157.0 lbs.
You are carrying 0.0 lbs and wearing 19.8 lbs, peanuts.
Your base abilities are: Str:18 Int:10 Wil:14 Dex:19 Con:19 Statsum: 80.
Offensive bonus: 140, Dodging bonus: 146, Parrying bonus: 141
Your mood is: Wimpy. You will flee below: 417 Hit Points


shield parry (79%)

search (58%)
track (92%)
ride Level 5 (72%)
wisdom lore Level 0 ( 0%)
swim ( 0%)
notice (93%)
camouflage (39%)
ranger sneak (31%)
cover tracks ( 0%)
survival Level 6 (84%)

steal ( 0%)
pick ( 0%)
hide (99%)
sneak (74%)
dodge (99%)
attack (53%)
backstab (92%)
palm ( 0%)
short blades (92%)
projectiles ( 0%)

Hunter stab is about trade offs, you could go combo and gain 16+ pracs from 8% dodge to spend somewhere else, or less lines of autotrack, you could get less than 99 hide(i hate hate hide fails when get limited opportunities) or a few more pracs shield parry / sneak /attack etc.

Warrior 1handed stab can't really afford notice, let alone luxuries unless they're abs.

Oak jav is extra extra crap now, instead of just worse than pine jav(which is very average already) in every way except pracs.
Short blades had lots of options before nerfing 2handed weapons, jav options were not good to begin with.

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