a dark oak javelin

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arston
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:05 pm

Re: a dark oak javelin

Post by arston » Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:45 pm

Taziar wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 1:33 pm
Rig wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 2:08 am
93 ob, 8 parry, 5lbs, 4d5, average of 12 dmg, has attack, can be thrown, stabs: pine jav

95 ob, 8 parry, 5 lbs, 5d4, average of 12.5 damage, has attack, can’t be thrown, doesn’t stab: emerald foil

Honest question, because that was very easy information to find. Is that somehow a bad weapon? How does that make pine jav useless? The weapon is great. I’d use that over an emerald foil any time. Especially with the option to throw or stab with it.
You are going to throw your only weapon you carry? Because you are not carrying more than one on your basic hunter due to weight, which is the only character you would even come close to deciding to use pine on. Reset to pines on both of your basic hunters and prove me wrong... because I'm pretty sure neither of you are running pines on any character right now and would only do so in one specific build on one "basic" class.
Aureus wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:49 pm
That gives them this very high OB, moderate damage, weak defense role, which I feel is quite strong when played well and offers a lot of flexibility as well (you can throw, backstab, attack, and it pairs well with kick).
It sounds here like Taziar has already considered what Aureus is saying, and pointing out that the pracs simply dont work. The pracs are cheapest on a hunter, and i have broke down how much pracs it would cost:

Assuming that a prerolled hunter would want to have enough track for names, lvl 6 survival because hes dismounted stabbing, 90% notice/attack/kick/dodge/shield parry/javelins, to have 99% in the stab skills, and only lvl 4 ride and 50% search then it would use 263 pracs needing to be a lvl 85 hunter which is just not possible.

So lets cut back on everything, only 95% in stab skills, drop survival down to 1 and commit to not being in extended pk or quaffing every 3 minutes, drop to 2 ranks of track (is that even enough for autotrack? i dont play hunters) its already low search, already no pick, already only 91 dodge/shield parry so cant do a dodge setup, EVEN THEN it takes 207 pracs, so you still need to cut out 6 more pracs somewhere for a lvl 51 character. And thats not to excel in ANYTHING, thats to get terrible defense, worse stab than any dagger, worse melee than any foil- no disarm, and you get to throw maybe 2 times in any pk before you run out of javelins, i dont know enough about kick to know if 91% in combo and javelin is any use or not.

Rig
Posts: 2226
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:00 pm
Location: JESUS

Re: a dark oak javelin

Post by Rig » Tue Mar 22, 2022 6:11 pm

No disarm doesn’t equate to worse melee than fencing blades.

There aren’t very many, if any, hunters getting 99% in ALL stab set-up pracs.

The defense is literally the same as most sblades

Your practices confuse me, because if you’re practicing to stab with pine javelin, your practices aren’t going to be different than practicing to stab with short blades unless you’re trying to stab on a warrior with short blades or a pine jav on a rogue.

I don’t know where everyone is getting the idea that you need to have 99% in everything under the sun, but that’s very simply not true to excel in any way.

Pyrda
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:56 am

Re: a dark oak javelin

Post by Pyrda » Tue Mar 22, 2022 6:48 pm

arston wrote:
Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:45 pm
Taziar wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 1:33 pm
Rig wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 2:08 am
93 ob, 8 parry, 5lbs, 4d5, average of 12 dmg, has attack, can be thrown, stabs: pine jav

95 ob, 8 parry, 5 lbs, 5d4, average of 12.5 damage, has attack, can’t be thrown, doesn’t stab: emerald foil

Honest question, because that was very easy information to find. Is that somehow a bad weapon? How does that make pine jav useless? The weapon is great. I’d use that over an emerald foil any time. Especially with the option to throw or stab with it.
You are going to throw your only weapon you carry? Because you are not carrying more than one on your basic hunter due to weight, which is the only character you would even come close to deciding to use pine on. Reset to pines on both of your basic hunters and prove me wrong... because I'm pretty sure neither of you are running pines on any character right now and would only do so in one specific build on one "basic" class.
Aureus wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:49 pm
That gives them this very high OB, moderate damage, weak defense role, which I feel is quite strong when played well and offers a lot of flexibility as well (you can throw, backstab, attack, and it pairs well with kick).
It sounds here like Taziar has already considered what Aureus is saying, and pointing out that the pracs simply dont work. The pracs are cheapest on a hunter, and i have broke down how much pracs it would cost:

Assuming that a prerolled hunter would want to have enough track for names, lvl 6 survival because hes dismounted stabbing, 90% notice/attack/kick/dodge/shield parry/javelins, to have 99% in the stab skills, and only lvl 4 ride and 50% search then it would use 263 pracs needing to be a lvl 85 hunter which is just not possible.

So lets cut back on everything, only 95% in stab skills, drop survival down to 1 and commit to not being in extended pk or quaffing every 3 minutes, drop to 2 ranks of track (is that even enough for autotrack? i dont play hunters) its already low search, already no pick, already only 91 dodge/shield parry so cant do a dodge setup, EVEN THEN it takes 207 pracs, so you still need to cut out 6 more pracs somewhere for a lvl 51 character. And thats not to excel in ANYTHING, thats to get terrible defense, worse stab than any dagger, worse melee than any foil- no disarm, and you get to throw maybe 2 times in any pk before you run out of javelins, i dont know enough about kick to know if 91% in combo and javelin is any use or not.
It's hard to take you seriously when you think youre getting 90 kick on a hunter and stab.

When you play a stabby hunter you're going to have to sacrifice to do so, that means no 90 attack, probably 85 sparry, no kick, sblades/stab around the 92-95 mark. You're also probably going to have to sacrifice track to 2 lines and without names unless you're willing to sacrifice elsewhere further.
Last edited by Pyrda on Tue Mar 22, 2022 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pyrda
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:56 am

Re: a dark oak javelin

Post by Pyrda » Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:07 pm

For some reference, the below are my current non prac bonused stabby hunter stats and pracs.

19 12 14 19 17

195 practices used.

85 parry
99 hide
91 sneak
91 dodge
93 short blades
93 backstab
67 attack
53 search
86 track
89 notice
Lvl 4 ride
Lvl 7 survival

I'm making the choice to play in combo so that I can afford the extra 10-20% attack and my level 7 survival. I could alternatively sacrifice named track and attack for more parry though my preference is as above.

Taziar
Posts: 926
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:28 pm
Location: !Discord

Re: a dark oak javelin

Post by Taziar » Wed Mar 23, 2022 12:37 pm

Pyrda wrote:
Tue Mar 22, 2022 6:48 pm

It's hard to take you seriously when you think youre getting 90 kick on a hunter and stab.
Aureus wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:49 pm
That gives them this very high OB, moderate damage, weak defense role, which I feel is quite strong when played well and offers a lot of flexibility as well (you can throw, backstab, attack, and it pairs well with kick).

Arston isn't the one that said kick paired well with it... Aureus is. So do you not take Aureus seriously?

Taziar
Posts: 926
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:28 pm
Location: !Discord

Re: a dark oak javelin

Post by Taziar » Wed Mar 23, 2022 12:39 pm

Again, the only class you guys are promoting javelins with are your "basic" stabby hunters...

tekela
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:29 pm

Re: a dark oak javelin

Post by tekela » Wed Mar 23, 2022 1:17 pm

Taziar wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 12:37 pm
Pyrda wrote:
Tue Mar 22, 2022 6:48 pm

It's hard to take you seriously when you think youre getting 90 kick on a hunter and stab.
Aureus wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:49 pm
That gives them this very high OB, moderate damage, weak defense role, which I feel is quite strong when played well and offers a lot of flexibility as well (you can throw, backstab, attack, and it pairs well with kick).

Arston isn't the one that said kick paired well with it... Aureus is. So do you not take Aureus seriously?
"It pairs well with kick" is a comment on the high OB potential (kick is dependent on your OB and your opponents DB). It doesn't mean that you can do all of those things at the same time with 99 pracs in everything on a preroll or without any significant trade-offs.

Like, sure you can kick with a stab set up with javs and be more effective than an sblade by virtue of relative ob, but you sure as hell can't do that *and* have level 7 survival *and* 99 pracs in everything. If it wasn't just a big ol' strawman, I think Arston just misinterpreted what was actually being said or read some sort of implication that you could do it all at the same time without any give in pracs -- which doesn't make any sense for any combination set ups.

The point being made (repeatedly) is that this weapon is giving you several different ways you can use it or build around it, depending on what you want to do. Some people have repeatedly confused that with "being able to do everything you want with it concurrently and optimally".

Atkins
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:55 pm

Re: a dark oak javelin

Post by Atkins » Wed Mar 23, 2022 4:57 pm

Taziar is never going to agree with you. Taziar believes it should be a certain way. Just leave it at that.

arston
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:05 pm

Re: a dark oak javelin

Post by arston » Wed Mar 23, 2022 5:33 pm

tekela wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 1:17 pm


"It pairs well with kick" is a comment on the high OB potential (kick is dependent on your OB and your opponents DB). It doesn't mean that you can do all of those things at the same time with 99 pracs in everything on a preroll or without any significant trade-offs.
arston wrote:
Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:45 pm

So lets cut back on everything, only 95% in stab skills, drop survival down to 1 and commit to not being in extended pk or quaffing every 3 minutes, drop to 2 ranks of track (is that even enough for autotrack? i dont play hunters) its already low search, already no pick, already only 91 dodge/shield parry so cant do a dodge setup, EVEN THEN it takes 207 pracs, so you still need to cut out 6 more pracs somewhere for a lvl 51 character. And thats not to excel in ANYTHING, thats to get terrible defense, worse stab than any dagger, worse melee than any foil- no disarm, and you get to throw maybe 2 times in any pk before you run out of javelins, i dont know enough about kick to know if 91% in combo and javelin is any use or not.
I broke it down WITH the significant trade offs, assuming that you drop stab skills that gets down to

94 hide/sneak/backstab
91 dodge/shield parry/kick/javelins/attack
2 lines track
lvl 1 survival
50% search

i suppose TECHNICALLY, thats playable? for ONE class, if you sacrifice literally everything else then you can get something subpar in a handful of things. all the advantage of having a "higher ob javelin" goes away when you can only prac it 91% though, so not seeing anything other than suuuuper niche case where this setup could even be useful at all.

Raiste
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:39 pm

Re: a dark oak javelin

Post by Raiste » Wed Mar 23, 2022 5:41 pm

Build looks pretty close to optimal given your preferences, thanks for sharing Pyrda. Can't agree more with Rig concerning the confusion about needing 99% in everything to be effective. Cowl summed it up well recently with, "know your limits".

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