a dark oak javelin

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tekela
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Re: a dark oak javelin

Post by tekela » Mon Mar 14, 2022 10:39 am

I think a lot of the big changes (postures) along with the general incremental tweaks are indicative of how premium offensive bonus should feel on weapons along with what sort of parry we really should be expecting in our defensive set ups. There are a lot of top-end weapons that are great, outside of decent offensive bonus. With postures removed and parry downed on a number of weapons, we've also seen parry go down a bit in general. This sort of combines to make OB much more important than it has been in the past. Throw in the general power of attack, particularly against modern combo and abs.

All that context is basically to say the pine javelin looks kind of like a fencing blade that stabs at the moment. It's got drawbacks relative to short blades (weight and stab damage with slightly worse defense), but it's also sort of on par with emerald foil in terms of OB and defense. That makes it +12 on the best non-rare short blade (red stone dagger), and the third highest OB among *all* non-rare weapons, behind only WSL and emerald foil.

Speaking strictly from a PK perspective, it's got a potentially viable niche, but not everyone is going to be using every viable set up all the time for a variety of reasons.

Taziar
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Re: a dark oak javelin

Post by Taziar » Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:22 pm

Ahri wrote:
Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:44 am
I'll disagree Taz that I know at least two people who sued javelins for smobbing; and agree completely that noone uses the class anymore, and there is no reason to do so.
I did too, on a hunter back when the hunter dmg bonus translated to throw damage. It took 10+ to kill transparent spider in the spine... that is 50 lbs of pine javelins and if you tried that on a humanoid smob as a hunter you lose all 10 and not even get it to battered/beaten. It was never "efficient" in any sort of way. Projectiles have always been the better choice for throwing in all aspects.

Taziar
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Re: a dark oak javelin

Post by Taziar » Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:31 pm

tekela wrote:
Mon Mar 14, 2022 10:39 am
All that context is basically to say the pine javelin looks kind of like a fencing blade that stabs at the moment. It's got drawbacks relative to short blades (weight and stab damage with slightly worse defense), but it's also sort of on par with emerald foil in terms of OB and defense. That makes it +12 on the best non-rare short blade (red stone dagger), and the third highest OB among *all* non-rare weapons, behind only WSL and emerald foil.
I don't know... I think fblades is the better choice 100% of the time over javelins because of disarm. I think sblades are a 100% choice over javelins due to higher PB and better stab damage. Javelins didn't use to have high ob. That change was given to them when the PB was reduced. For no real apparent advantage to the class in either of it's two special functions: throw or stab. OB does nothing for either. (you are going to land a throw on something at 70-90ish OB the same if it isn't full dodge if we are talking throwing against Players, and the OB difference doesn't matter for smobbing, and I have a couple hundred smob rips of experience to prove that)

If you are sitting in a room melee-ing something with a javelin you are doing it wrong. Fblades are way better for this due to disarm. If attack is such a broken mechanic, why did they raise the OB so high on the only class that 100% has attack? The levels of OB pre-changes was balanced against the amount of PB the class had. The change was made for the sake of change, not because the class was at all main stream or dominate.

tekela
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Re: a dark oak javelin

Post by tekela » Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:57 pm

Taziar wrote:
Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:31 pm
I don't know... I think fblades is the better choice 100% of the time over javelins because of disarm. I think sblades are a 100% choice over javelins due to higher PB and better stab damage.
Sure, if you're going pure melee, go with fencing blades. If you're going pure stab, go with short blades (though red stone and pine jav have very comparable pb now). If you want to stab but have high OB to potentially finish some classes of defensive targets with melee, javelins is a decent option for hunters. Hence, what I said about niche.
Javelins didn't use to have high ob. That change was given to them when the PB was reduced. For no real apparent advantage to the class in either of it's two special functions: throw or stab. OB does nothing for either. (you are going to land a throw on something at 70-90ish OB the same if it isn't full dodge if we are talking throwing against Players, and the OB difference doesn't matter for smobbing, and I have a couple hundred smob rips of experience to prove that)
Yeah, I used the previous (maybe twice removed at this point) iteration of pine javelins pretty extensively on a stabby hunter. I think it's a mistake to tunnelvision on whether or not every change needs to cater to a weapon's "special functions" -- extremely high OB with attack itself can be special if used properly. It still has those special functions and it's relatively unique to have that much OB on top of an attacking weapon that also stabs.
If you are sitting in a room melee-ing something with a javelin you are doing it wrong. Fblades are way better for this due to disarm.
I don't think this rationale holds up particularly well because melee with shortblades is already fairly effective and they don't disarm. Again, you're trading some damage and disarm for the ability to stab while also pulling really high OB. PKing in general can't really be condensed down to sitting in a room, but I'm just going to assume that's a turn of phrase.
If attack is such a broken mechanic,
:?: :?: :?:

Who said this? Maybe you're thinking of berserk attack, that's a little bit different than attack with piercing weapons and not entirely relevant to the conversation about javelins.
why did they raise the OB so high on the only class that 100% has attack?
Not following.
The levels of OB pre-changes was balanced against the amount of PB the class had. The change was made for the sake of change, not because the class was at all main stream or dominate.
I think the first sentence still holds true -- it's just reversed now. I also don't think every change needs to be justified exclusively by something being mainstream or dominant, but I can't really speak to why something was changed in a particular way.

Taziar
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Re: a dark oak javelin

Post by Taziar » Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:05 pm

Sure... maybe Pine jav is the better choice for your basic hunter. But that is like the extreme example of where that weapon "might" be viable. Every other weapon in the class I consider a mob only weapon. And since swords and spears are such high WoT theme items, and javelins being the closest thing to Aiel spears in the game it is a shame.

Rig
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Re: a dark oak javelin

Post by Rig » Tue Mar 15, 2022 2:08 am

93 ob, 8 parry, 5lbs, 4d5, average of 12 dmg, has attack, can be thrown, stabs: pine jav

95 ob, 8 parry, 5 lbs, 5d4, average of 12.5 damage, has attack, can’t be thrown, doesn’t stab: emerald foil

Honest question, because that was very easy information to find. Is that somehow a bad weapon? How does that make pine jav useless? The weapon is great. I’d use that over an emerald foil any time. Especially with the option to throw or stab with it.

Taziar
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Re: a dark oak javelin

Post by Taziar » Tue Mar 15, 2022 1:33 pm

Rig wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 2:08 am
93 ob, 8 parry, 5lbs, 4d5, average of 12 dmg, has attack, can be thrown, stabs: pine jav

95 ob, 8 parry, 5 lbs, 5d4, average of 12.5 damage, has attack, can’t be thrown, doesn’t stab: emerald foil

Honest question, because that was very easy information to find. Is that somehow a bad weapon? How does that make pine jav useless? The weapon is great. I’d use that over an emerald foil any time. Especially with the option to throw or stab with it.
You are going to throw your only weapon you carry? Because you are not carrying more than one on your basic hunter due to weight, which is the only character you would even come close to deciding to use pine on. Reset to pines on both of your basic hunters and prove me wrong... because I'm pretty sure neither of you are running pines on any character right now and would only do so in one specific build on one "basic" class.

tekela
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Re: a dark oak javelin

Post by tekela » Tue Mar 15, 2022 2:23 pm

You're being presented with some pretty basic facts about the weapon and class and are responding more emotionally than anything and making it personal in some irrelevant ways. For example, just because Rig lost a silver sai within ten minutes of it leaving my inventory and entering his doesn't mean a silver sai needs to be upped. Alternatively, if one of us does take you up on it and continue our general trajectory of not really struggling with any set up, it doesn't mean that there can't be well-reasoned changes proposed.

To that end, I'd worry more about making arguments for why the javelin needs a different niche, rather than argue that it doesn't have one -- that's just not true. It's a high end weapon that compares favorably with other high-end weapons and seems to match the general direction on this game away from hyper-defensive set ups. If you want it to be a yew staff that stabs again, make that argument without claiming a fencing blade that trades disarm for stab/throw is useless or something.

Would also note that in its high-parry heyday, there really weren't a ton of people using pine javelins either, at least in PK. I can think of maybe three characters that used them consistently and two of them were the same person. In this current era of the game, you're not just choosing between different high end weapons -- you're choosing between high end weapons and overabundant craftable rares. Would I consider a pine jav over red stone or emerald foil? Sure. But why would I consider using it over a basilard or paramerion when I typically don't have issues getting one?

isabel
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Re: a dark oak javelin

Post by isabel » Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:21 pm

Pine jav used to be good for master fcs also.

Rig needs to be upped

Aureus
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Re: a dark oak javelin

Post by Aureus » Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:49 pm

As a general rule, I do not like high-defense stabbing weapons, hence javelins' new niche. High defense on stabbing weapons incentivizes playstyles that I do not think are healthy when they are dominant, such as aiming only for stabs. Due to how rogues' practices work, I also prefer that short blades be the strongest stabbing weapons vs javelins (a warrior prac). That gives them this very high OB, moderate damage, weak defense role, which I feel is quite strong when played well and offers a lot of flexibility as well (you can throw, backstab, attack, and it pairs well with kick).

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