a dark oak javelin

[Rig]

I’ll play a basic clanned hunter and use pine javs without stab. Seems fun.

[Prykor]

So, about that dark oak javelin...

Pine is clearly the best for melee combat, with the most OB, PB, and damage and weighing the most at 5lb. What it gives up for in damage compared to an e-foil is supposedly made up for with the versatility of also being able to stab.

the barbed jav doing less damage and a touch less OB but is half the weight... to better carry a bunch to be thrown, only it still weighs over 10x as much as a throwing knife and does less damage overall, and since you need to prac projectiles to throw (usefully) in the first place the use of it is entirely regulated to times when better options aren't available.

the niche of the dark oak jav used to be even less OB than the barbed, but it could be 2h'd with defense similar to tier 1/2 polearm or spear (or on par with dirks, but being 3 pracs for a rogue is still much more of an investment than 1 prac sblades). With this change, the dark oak clearly lost its niche -- is it going to get anything in return? Will it be basically a lower tier weapon in a similar/worse place than the barbed?
It's not like they got much use overall, and were forgotten about when it came to the weapon crafting options (or the wiki is outdated...one of the two), so it's not a huge loss even if so, but still.

Also, any ideas if/when will we see a v3 of the weapons spreadsheet, or update to the v2 after the current adjustment (unless I'm missing something and it's designed to be a beast of a 1h set up with a touch over 3x the pb of a heron)?

[Eol]

What's the point of a long, barbed javelin

Pine 93 OB 8 PB 5 Weight 4d5 Damage
Long 91 OB 3 PB 2.5 Weight 3d6 Damage

Does the 2.5 weight justify the other differences? I also still think blue steel scimitar needs to be redesigned.

[Rig]

From what Aureus said, it seems that pine javelin is probably the top-tier in the javelin class, while the rest get progressively worse, stat-wise. Which isn’t any different than any of the other classes, the only reason we see a huge difference here is that there’s a total of like 5 weapons that fall into the ‘javelin’ category.

[Eol]

One of the historic goals of weapons revisions is to produce variations in weapon classes and avoid the creation of best in class non-rare weapons. I read Aureus' most recent post but I'm not sure where he says pine is best in class (did I miss it?).

Anyway.

V1
Pine 83 ob, 8 pb, 5 lb, 9d2
Barb 86 ob, 3 pb, 2.5 lb, 3d6

V2
Pine 88 ob, 8 pb, 5 lb, 9d2
Barb 86 ob, 3 pb, 2.5 lb, 3d6

V3 - damage changes

V4 - +5 OB

It seems like they were at least trying to set them apart in V1.

[Rig]

The point was to make it so no one class is specifically better at everything than the others. All of the classes have top-end weapons that are far better than the most in the class. They just specialize in different aspects. See: Long blades - OB, Axes - Damage, Clubs - bash.

In this aspect, for stabbing specifically it's short blades - javelins. For damage it's favored toward short blades because that's how the stab calculation works. In terms of defense, they're nearly similar. When it comes to OB, they're far different unless you're using a triple bladed or silver sai.

[Taziar]

You're being presented with some pretty basic facts about the weapon and class and are responding more emotionally than anything and making it personal in some irrelevant ways. For example, just because Rig lost a silver sai within ten minutes of it leaving my inventory and entering his doesn't mean a silver sai needs to be upped. Alternatively, if one of us does take you up on it and continue our general trajectory of not really struggling with any set up, it doesn't mean that there can't be well-reasoned changes proposed.

To that end, I'd worry more about making arguments for why the javelin needs a different niche, rather than argue that it doesn't have one -- that's just not true. It's a high end weapon that compares favorably with other high-end weapons and seems to match the general direction on this game away from hyper-defensive set ups. If you want it to be a yew staff that stabs again, make that argument without claiming a fencing blade that trades disarm for stab/throw is useless or something.

Would also note that in its high-parry heyday, there really weren't a ton of people using pine javelins either, at least in PK. I can think of maybe three characters that used them consistently and two of them were the same person. In this current era of the game, you're not just choosing between different high end weapons -- you're choosing between high end weapons and overabundant craftable rares. Would I consider a pine jav over red stone or emerald foil? Sure. But why would I consider using it over a basilard or paramerion when I typically don't have issues getting one?

If your reading emotion in my posts you are reading it wrong.

[Taziar]

As a general rule, I do not like high-defense stabbing weapons, hence javelins' new niche. High defense on stabbing weapons incentivizes playstyles that I do not think are healthy when they are dominant, such as aiming only for stabs. Due to how rogues' practices work, I also prefer that short blades be the strongest stabbing weapons vs javelins (a warrior prac). That gives them this very high OB, moderate damage, weak defense role, which I feel is quite strong when played well and offers a lot of flexibility as well (you can throw, backstab, attack, and it pairs well with kick).

Remove stab from the javelin class then? It was removed from all the other non-short blade classes... As the only "Aiel" weapons in the game it would be nice to have them be played, and even a rare created, once they don't stab.

[Taziar]

the barbed jav doing less damage and a touch less OB but is half the weight... to better carry a bunch to be thrown, only it still weighs over 10x as much as a throwing knife and does less damage overall, and since you need to prac projectiles to throw (usefully) in the first place the use of it is entirely regulated to times when better options aren't available.

Don't need projectiles to throw javelins, only the javelin skill practiced.

[Rig]

Still not sure what’s stopping you from playing Javelins!

Wear dodge, you’ll get around 160 parry
Wear combo with parry trinks you’ll get 155+ parry

You’ll have at least 190 ob mounted.

You can stab if you so choose

Damage is similar to fencing blades

They have attack, so the melee capability is strong